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Post 160

Wednesday, September 6, 2006 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Again, dustin, I am still interested in whther you find my original post on this string of any value.

Post 161

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin,
Sorry, you lost me at global warming.


Post 162

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Please see Dustin's well considered post on this topic on the Feminism thread. Justice demands that his good faith there be returned

Post 163

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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(I am so deleting this post!)

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 9/07, 9:48pm)


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Post 164

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Feel free to continue with Dustin in good faith. Justice demands that I wait until he appologises to me for some of the things he said.

Ethan


Post 165

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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VEGETARIANS MAY LACK SUFFICIENT IODINE IN THEIR DIET

"Iodine content in food of plant origin is lower in comparison with that of animal origin due to a low iodine concentration in soil [the sea has more.]...

The study examined 15 vegetarians and 31 people who abstained from meat and milk products to compare them with 35 adults on a mixed diet.

"The results show that…there is a higher prevalence of iodine deficiency*[among non-meat eaters than among those with a mixed diet] which might be a consequence of [their eating only foods] of plant origin, no intake of fish and other sea products, as well as reduced iodine intake in the form of sea salt [which does not contain iodine] instead of iodized salt."

*Iodine deficiency can result in goiter and/or hypothyroidism, a medical condition.

DETAILS: Aside from eating fish, one can take kelp pills. Kelp is a type of seaweed and is rich in iodine. Some folks may be surprised that sea salt is without iodine.

Post 166

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Detour from Feminism

I've written a brief synopsis of Dustin's arguments last posted on the Feminism thread and hope to post a two part response to him later this evening, an essay & then point by point comments. I am going to post them here, not on the Feminism thread.

Ted

Post 167

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, I had a thyroid issue (enlarged) some years ago that the doctor told me was normally caused by iodine deficiency.  He was a specialist, and also said such deficiencies were terribly rare in America, because we use so much iodized table salt over here.  He asked if I was a vegetarian.


Post 168

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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==================
J Gynecol Obstet Biol Reprod (Paris). 2005 Oct;34(6):610-2.

[Breastfeeding and vegan diet]

[Article in French]

Departement de Medecine de l'Enfant et de l'Adolescent, CHU Hopital Sud, 16, boulevard de Bulgarie, 35056 Rennes Cedex 2.

 

Vegan diet in lactating women can induce vitamin B12 deficiency for their children with risk of an impaired neurological development. A 9.5-month-old girl presented with impaired growth and severe hypotonia. She had a macrocytic anemia secondary to vitamin B12 deficiency. MRI showed cerebral atrophy. She was exclusively breastfed. Her mother was also vitamin B12 deficient, secondary to a vegan diet. She had a macrocytic anemia when discharged from the maternity. Vegan diet is a totally inadequate regimen for pregnant and lactating women, especially for their children. Prevention is based on screening, information and vitamin supplementation.

 

PMID: 16208206 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

==================

 

Recap:

Vegan diet is a totally inadequate regimen for bearing children (ie. it's not an evolutionary stable strategy).

 

Ed


Post 169

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Ed, please take into consideration how fragile that study is. Not only did it affect only one subject, women who are Vegan that breastfeed have breastmilk that is void of pesticides and toxins found in a woman with a meat eating diet. Source: http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/WELCOME/treatmentguides/veganchildren.html

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Post 170

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin:   Ed, please take into consideration how fragile that study is. Not only did it affect only one subject, women who are Vegan that breastfeed have breastmilk that is void of pesticides and toxins found in a woman with a meat eating diet.
 
Ok, now I'm confused...aren't pesticides in the vegetables we eat? Aren't pesticides used to kill pests that would otherwise destroy vegetable crops? I understand how there may be some toxins, etc. in the the meat of animals who eat treated crops, and then the animals are eaten by people, but how are vegetarians able to avoid having the pesticides in their system? What am I missing here? Help me out, Dustin.

Erica


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Post 171

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Erica by and large there is nothing wrong with pesticides and you're right, Dustin's argument doesn't make any sense. It's nothing but fear-mongering and an irrational fear over man-made chemicals. The same irrational fear that got DDT banned in 1978 after Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring lied about the effects of DDT on the environment and erroneously claimed it was a carcinogen. A federal court at the time even came to a judgement that the EPA used bad science and purposely withheld evidence to show it was not harmful. And since that ban, because it was used to stop or curb the spread of malaria in many tropical climates, the banning of DDT has been credited for 50 million needless deaths from malaria that otherwise could have been avoided. Check out junkscience.com for sources.

Post 172

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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Erica,

Yes, you're right. Chances are there's plenty of pesticides in veggies. I was referring to the ones in meat though, (along with hormone drugs.) I didn't imply or claim vegetables were free of pesticides.

John,

I think you may need to loosen your necktie a little bit. Irrational fear of man made chemicals? Don't be so dramatic. I simply copied and pasted from a website, just like Ed did.

Post 173

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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Veggy Casuistry, Part 1

Dustin,

From your response to me, I would condense your position to this statement: “I have come to find the abuse of animals personally abhorrent. I don’t believe that animals are the equivalent of humans or that there are no circumstances under which I might either kill or eat one. But by practicing vegetarianism I not only feel better physically, I am less troubled morally. I know others whom I would expect to agree with my choice of vegetarianism, given their respect for animals, yet they do not. I believe it would be a better world if people followed my views, yet I do not feel that I would be justified in using force to compel them.” It is implied that you wish to change the way animals are treated, and want to know how this can be accomplished. I hope that does not misrepresent you.

I shall respond with this preliminary statement now, given the time my response is taking.

Casuistry is the art of finding an ethical justification for an act which one has committed or wishes to commit. Objectivism holds that an individual’s life, proper to his nature, is the standard from which a proper morality is derived. One might assume that a person’s value system should thus be derived by reasoning from the abstract to the particular. For example, one might follow a thread from life, to nutrition, to protein, to legumes, to soy beans. This begs the question: is it by reasoning from the abstract that tofu should taste good? Of course not. By nature, all higher animals have inborn mechanisms of reward and avoidance that drive them to pursue various actions. We can simplify this by speaking of a pleasure/pain mechanism – although the mechanisms that underlie sensations such as sweetness, pleasurable touch, arousing aromas, craving certain foods, satiety, soreness of wounds, the need to defecate, etc., are mediated by very complex neurological systems of input, output, and feedback. These systems are very far from being understood in their entirety; the cannabinoid receptor system was only discovered last decade, and our understanding of even long known receptor systems is incomplete. The brain is about as well understood as the seafloor ecology.

Yet one fact is very well known. Genetic variation causes different individuals not only to vary in their responsiveness to sense stimuli, but also in their higher level processing from the sensory level upwards. Although any pronouncements here will have to be unsupported and the science is incomplete and not free from to controversy, intelligence in all its manifestations, sexual orientation, the prevalence of prodigious skills and tragic defects are all biologically mediated, if not determined. (This is not a claim for genetic determinism; environment and the feedback of choice -– volition all too often being ignored – are equally potent or overriding depending upon the circumstance being considered.) In any case, human nature, while sharing essential commonalities among normal people, varies greatly in its specifics, and one’s needs, pleasures and joys arise from the bottom up, not from the top down. We are all born as actors and we come to learn actions that we wish to commit – values that we act to gain or keep – long before we come to question the nature of our values or feel the need for their validation. And so, to find a justification for our actions, and to harmonize our actions, we resort to ethics as an art to guide our lives. We bring certain values to the table, and through casuistry or criticism we integrate those values as we can, develop new ones as necessary, and when justified, modify or abandon others.

If we love animals and nature, are there grounds coherent with rational self interest to support our desire to protect nature and forgo eating meat? In what way, if ever, is there a political justification for enforcing any limits on the treatment of animals? These questions cannot merely be dismissed by mentioning that by eating the wrong vegetables one may suffer from a dietary deficiency, or by saying that since animals don’t have political rights per se there are no legal issues involved in their treatment. Issues of nutrition differ based upon one’s age, sex and medical condition, and addressing them is more properly a medical than an ethical issue. One doesn’t go to an ethicist to discuss the merits of eyeglasses versus contacts or laser surgery. It is mere sophistry to forbid one’s child from having contacts because they may cause eye infections – when one really wants one’s child to learn to bear up under teasing for having glasses. If one doesn’t like vegetarianism for oneself there is no need to justify that based on the mere dietary need to vary one’s diet and possibly seek supplements which are readily available at little cost. Certain traditional ethnic diets will be deficient if one omits the meat and makes no adjustments. Many immigrants from third world countries to the West see their children grow to much larger sizes than those foreign born. But then they also see obesity, heart disease, and colon cancer in higher levels among those who have adapted a Western diet. And some foreign traditional diets, like that from the vegetarian Indian south, are practiced in the West with no ill consequences. Adducing the mere possibility of malnutrition among vegetarians as a reason to forbid it as an option is as valid today as forbidding long sea cruises for fear of scurvy. Grapefruit are available. Political questions remain.

End Part One

Ted Keer 09/09/2006 NYC

Post 174

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin, our farmers do not use pesticides that are harmful to us. They are called pesticides for a reason because they kill pests, not humans. There is also no harmful sideeffects to eating meat that has been altered with hormones, again another irrational fear. The article you cited gave no peer reviewed data to back up it's claims. For example it claims:

"Is a vegan diet healthy for an active, growing child? Absolutely. Children raised on a vegan diet eat more fruits and vegetables than their meat-eating counterparts. They are sick less often, and don't have as many food allergies."


Yet where do they justify this claim? Also note at the bottom of the page it says:

These comments are the opinions of the author and have not been confirmed by medical or scientific studies.


There you have it! To borrow a saying from my heroes Penn and Teller....it's BULLSHIT!

So when you cite "pesticides and toxins" as if to imply pesticides are a danger to humans, and also imply hormonally altered meat is harmful when no such evidence exists to suggest this, this stems from an irrational fear of pesticides, i.e. man made chemicals and an irrational fear of agricultural science or genetic engineering. I stand by the comment Dustin as it applies to your post and the article you cited. Loosened neck tie or not Dustin, I prefer to stick to the truth, what about you?

Post 175

Saturday, September 9, 2006 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, thanks for the awesome response! I'll reply after your next part and when I have some time to write my own.

John, your claiming that farmers use pesticides don't hurt people I feel is a complete lie. I'm sure you may be able to pull a random study to claim you're right, but as I showed you (you're currently arguing against it) it's easy to find anyone claiming anything when it comes to citing sources and finding studies. I'm almost positive you're not qualified to claim all pesticides used today don't hurt people, and I'm also sure you're not an expert on pesticides. Since you don't know me at all, how can you claim I'm afraid of man made chemicals? That seems very unrational, and almost mystical (judging people's beliefs in regards to chemicals via a few message forum posts. That's Ms. Cleo type stuff) When I was a few years younger, I experimented with plenty of man made chemicals, as a matter of fact. To be honest, I'm not really interested in hearing your point of view, though argue on if you wish. I feel like you'll just come at me like a jerk, despite my demeanor, That, I find is not very reasonable of you.

(Edited by Dustin
on 9/09, 10:09pm)


Post 176

Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Dustin,

"I'm sure you may be able to pull a random study to claim you're right, but as I showed you (you're currently arguing against it) it's easy to find anyone claiming anything when it comes to citing sources and finding studies."

You might start your study on how to discriminate between fact and fiction here:

http://scientificmethod.org/

I'm assuming you've already read the "Intro. to Objectivism" stuff. Especially:

http://objectivism101.com/IOP/Epistemology_Main.html

One of the best words I learned at about 18 from Ayn Rand was "epistemology". Reality does not change because of what we "think" or "feel" we know.

I gave you a "thumbs up" because you're so feisty and only nineteen years old.

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Post 177

Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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Dustin, everytime someone cites a study, you claim it's not reliable etc. But yet you continue to cite your own studies, So which is it: Is nothing verifiable, is no knowledge possible? Or are there objective ways to determine the validity of studies. If you don't believe it's possible to verify anything reliably, then what the hell is the point of debating? It's just he said/she said back and forth. If you're truly interested in having a debate based on facts, I recommend this website:
 


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