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Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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Rothbard was notorious for plagurizing the works of others, thus is the reason why Rand kicked him out, if memory serves. Specifically, he plagurized Rand's work, so it's no wonder why she kicked him out of her circle of friends.

-- Bridget

Post 1

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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I know nothing of Rothbard other than having read enough of him to know I had no interest in reading more. But, can anyone here either dispel or corroborate this claim?

"The break was finalized by his formal "trial" held by the Randian Senior Collective, which Murray declined to attend."

Ted

Post 2

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 5:08amSanction this postReply
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I've heard accusations of plagiarism concerning Rothbard before - specifically that he plagiarized from a masters thesis of Barbara Branden - but have yet to see evidence such as side-by-side quotes from his writing and Barbara's to substantiate the accusations. (and the irony of that is they were from hardcore Oists who despise BB and think she cannot be trusted at all) If you're going to make claims that Rothbard plagiarized Rand, I expect you can back them up in such a manner, so would like to see the evidence.


Post 3

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
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I have only read Rothbard's The Case Against the Fed and Education: Free and Compulsory but I liked them both.

Post 4

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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I've unsubscribed from the von Mises Institute daily article and told Lew Rockwell why..

Sam


Post 5

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Well, Rand never sued him. Neither did anyone else. So where is the plagiarism? Plagiarism is easy to prove. All you have to do is show the material.

Nathaniel and Barbara are still alive and able to defend themselves. Rothboard is not.

According to Rothbard, his main "heresy" was having a Christian or theist wife and not attending enough meetings.


Post 6

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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The alleged plagiarism, according to the stories I've heard, was the insight that determinism is self-contradictory if you apply it to itself; the determinist could claim only that he was forced to believe the thesis, not that he had good grounds for it.

This argument first appears as a parenthetical aside in Kant's (yes, that Kant) Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals part 3, and Brand Blanshard takes it up in The Nature of Thought.  It was old stuff by the time anybody in Rand's circles heard of it.

Peter


Post 7

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Where is the evidence that Rothbard was "tried" in secret by a "collective" then?  Proof goes both ways.

Post 8

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:07pmSanction this postReply
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There have been stories of "kangaroo courts." I don't care much about them either way. Unless there is some type of footage of them, everything we "know" is hearsay.

If someone has committed plagiarism, it's easy to prove. Just show the copier's work and show the original work. That's all you have to do.


Post 9

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara Branden mentioned that she was invited to her own trial but declined. I have trouble believing that a man
of Murray's intellectual abilities would be plagiarizing her
but I guess it's possible. None of the folks on either side
of the Rothbard-Rand dispute have a lot of personal credibility whatever their particular intellectual attainments,
which again in Rothbard's case are considerable.
But Murray & Joey did like to gossip as do a lot of
the Randians. There was a very heated exchange some
years between Jim Peron and Joe Stromberg on this
alleged plagiarism. Laissez Faire City Times, I believe.


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Post 10

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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I agree that there's about as much evidence provided by the Rothbard-faithful about the secret excommunication due to having a Christian wife as there is from the Rothbard-haters concerning plagiarism. Really, the simplest, most believable explanation I've ever heard for the Rand/Rothbard split was this:

Rand had a huge ego. Rothbard had a huge ego. That was one huge ego too many.


Post 11

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron summarizes up everything quite well.

I suggest that everyone read Rothbard's letter (and others) to National Review after the review of Atlas Shrugged. Rothbard's comments regarding the book were definitely the best. He was quite positive about it.

So, what made Murray's attitude change?

Anyone who had even a shred of self-respect would have declined attending such a trial, by the way.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 10/31, 1:55pm)


Post 12

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Aaron and Chris here. Rothbard never changed his opinion of Atlas or Rand as a philosopher,
he just had serious disagreements in political philosophy
and historical revisionism. I personally don't think his views are incompatible with the gist of her philosophy but I'm in a definite minority on both sides of the barrier. 


Post 13

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 3:03amSanction this postReply
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Aaron writes: 
Really, the simplest, most believable explanation I've ever heard for the Rand/Rothbard split was this:

Rand had a huge ego. Rothbard had a huge ego. That was one huge ego too many.

And both happily lived in their own self-created worlds. Neither wanted a competive star in their orbit which could potentially outshine them. Both also wanted followers -- if not worshipers. And both fully got their wish. :-/ 



Post 14

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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Talk about drama, it never gets old, even when both parties are dead.

-- Bridget

Post 15

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Well, yes, there were the egos too large to share a room... and there was the religion of Mrs. R...  Am I stating the obvious when I point to "The Nature of Government" in The Virtue of Selfishness
"A recent variant of anarchistic theory, which is befuddling some of the younger advocates of freedom, is a weird absurdity called 'competing governments'." 
Obviously, this was Rothbard's idea, which Rand mischaracterized.  She lived through -- and barely survived -- the Russian Civil War.  No wonder that "competing governments" sounded like a bad idea to her.
As much as I might have agreed with much of Rothbard, as I have pointed out, he was not a good researcher. 
 I bought his A History of Money and Banking in the United States: the Colonial Era to World War II from the Von Mises Institute for research of my own into the "wildcat" era of (nominally) unregulated banking in the USA before the Civil War.  Rothbard second-sourced his information on the Suffolk Bank Plan.  I found it -- and it is not exactly as he presented the story.  He twisted the demise of the Suffolk System to meet his own political views.  In fact, the story of the Suffolk System has been retold better elsewhere.  I got a copy of another article from The Adam Smith Institute -- along with an Adam Smith necktie, both for $50, quite a deal.

I have been looking for a publisher for this article, but, so far, none of the libertarian or objectivist magazines I queried were interested.  (I am not a college professor.  I have no degrees.  "Disproving Rothbard" has not much to do with the story I wish to tell.)  So, my market for this is numismatics, where I have some status as an author, editor, and convention speaker.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/01, 2:37pm)


Post 16

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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I discussed the Rothbard plagiarism allegation here --

http://objectiblog.blogspot.com/2006/07/james-valliant-on-murray-rothbard.html

Justin Raimundo wrote a biography of Rothbard and he cites letters from Rothbard which support Rothbard's claim that his wife's Christianity was a factor.


Post 17

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Michael: As for Rothbard's research, I have to concur, because I was doing a little digging on his views about intellectual property [which was quite ahead of its time, oddly]. And he supposed that some how IP could still exist with trade secrets, but he probably didn't realize that trade secrets under common law practice do not apply to individuals outside of the contract pertaining to said trade secrets. That's been the only snafu I've seen by him, but then again, maybe he just didn't consider to check to see if followed in the legal context, who knows.

-- Bridget

Post 18

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Rothbard did some excellent economic work, especially on the causes of the Great Depression. His essay on "Praxeology, Value Judgments, and Public Policy" in The Foundations of Modern Austrian Economics is good.

In Mises' personal files at Grove City College I read about the plagiarizing charges. Rothbard had sent Mises copies his paper and Nathaniel Branden's correspondence about why it was plagiarizing. Rothbard was carrying on a discussion with Mises and others about how the concepts he used could be found in thinkers other than Rand. I might still have copies of those documents in the files I used for my doctorate.

I've avoided the disputes over personalities on discussion boards but I did know Rothbard and he did manage to alienate not only Objectivists but many libertarians as well. He certainly gave people reasons to not want to associate with him.

(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 11/01, 7:51pm)


Post 19

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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I'm glad my post has sparked debate/discussion on such an important figure in Austrian and rational individualist circles.

Ed Hudgins writes: "...the concepts he used could be found in thinkers other than Rand."
Ed, I am shifting the context of your statement.

This matter of having other foundations in thinkers other than Rand is very important and something many people caught up in what George Cordero called the "Discovery" and "Consolidation" periods of integrating Rand's philosophy often forget (http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Cordero/Why_I_Hate_Chris_Sciabarra_&_Barbara_Branden.shtml). Of course she was an innovator, but she herself also built upon the ideas of other thinkers.

I have considered myself a rational individualist since I began my philosophic journey after high school, Carson Sand (oh sorry, Ayn Rand) is a thinker I have come upon only in the last couple years. And while she has helped me immensely towards integrating a philosophy for living on Earth (to use her wording), she is not the be all and end all. Rand led me to the writings of Mises and Rothbard. And currently, I am interested in what positives I can gain from Jefferson, Bacon, and Spinoza.

How much of Rand philosophy I integrate into what I consider a correct philosophy is a matter of judgement- my own.

I applaud ROR and all its users for their benevolence.

And as to the question of a battle of egos: Where would we be without egos; where would we be without pride?

Tyson

(Edited by Tyson Russell on 11/01, 7:51pm)


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