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Wednesday
September 5, 2007

Advice for Those Considering NCSSM by Luke Setzer

Between 1982 and 1984, I attended a state boarding school called the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics (NCSSM). Founded in 1980, it became the first such state school for eleventh and twelfth graders showing exceptional aptitudes in the fields of science and mathematics. It has inspired the creation of eighteen other similar schools around the world and has become part of the National Consortium for Specialized Secondary Schools of Mathematics, Science and Technology (NCSSSMST). This article represents a body of "lessons learned" for those young people considering attending NCSSM today. It examines general considerations, motives, benefits, detriments, and alternatives related to the NCSSM experience. It concludes with a suggested plan of action. These lessons remain general enough to apply to any young high school student considering any advanced, rigorous, residential high school program -- or even college. (Read more...)
Discuss this Article (20 messages)

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 8:21am

Newcomers who find Objectivism objectionable should take their dissents to the Dissent Forum:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Dissent/

Otherwise, feel free to share your thoughts in this thread.

Thursday, September 6, 2007 - 9:55am

This was excellent, Luke.

Only it should have been called: "Advice for Young People...Period."

:-)

Thanks for this information, and your insights. I am going to have my son read this article.

Erica

Thursday, September 6, 2007 - 4:33pm

Thanks, Erica -- and make sure your son understands the nature of knowledge as hierarchical and contextual and that one can generalize large and complex bodies of knowledge into a few simple statements, e.g. Newton's three laws of motion and one law of gravity to describe all of mechanics.

I represented the classic case of a student very good at memorizing equations and reciting facts and then applying them intuitively quite well on typical high school tests -- great for simple material but terrible for higher level grasping of complex topics like physics with calculus. These bad learning habits really hammered me at NCSSM and continued to haunt me all through college. I never really understood this "nature of knowledge" approach until I started reading Ayn Rand. This happened my last semester of college, naturally.

The single biggest mistake I made at NCSSM happened my last semester. I had the chance to read Atlas Shrugged for a book report and class project. I liked the title and visited the library, but the huge size intimidated me as I had very little time to spare. So I opted for a team project with two other guys for Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance instead. We literally split the reading three ways and explained to each other the contents of our respective pieces -- a "fake it 'til you make it" approach. The gal who read Atlas Shrugged did not seem moved by it when she gave her report.

A fellow NCSSM graduate became my dormitory roommate my freshman year at NCSU. He majored in physics while I majored in mechanical engineering. He teased me about the lack of elegance of the typical freshman level mechanics course, e.g. the concrete-bound "four magic equations" that reflected a correspondingly concrete-bound learning mentality. By his sophomore year, he grew weary of the lack of integration and proper intellectual grounding the NCSU curriculum offered, so he took his inheritance from his late father and spent it on a proper "Great Books of the Western World" classical university program at Saint John's College in Annapolis, Maryland. He eventually obtained master's and doctorate degrees in physics and now does research.

Regarding NCSU, its two major programs consist of Agricultural and Life Sciences (ALS) and Engineering. The overwhelming number of students enter in one of those two majors. Its college poster in 1984 consisted of a dairy cow looking at an Apple computer. My roommate said, "This poster represents everything I see wrong with NCSU." It took me quite a long time to understand what he meant. I still think most people would find themselves challenged to justify the cost of a private university education, however.

In my opinion, SuperCamp looks like an excellent way for students to learn to engage their whole minds in the learning process instead of just the small portion that the rote method uses. Since NCSSM obsesses with producing star students, it would do well to take a look at these methods and perhaps offer scholarships for incoming students to attend this program the summer before they begin NCSSM -- or require such incoming students to attend a similar program taught in-house. The book I mentioned, Quantum Learning, talks about SuperCamp learning strategies in detail.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/06, 4:38pm)

Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - 3:17am

This site offers much useful information:

http://degree.net/

It shows various legitimate nontraditional ways to earn degrees while also exposing scams and degree mills.

As a humorous aside, check this free online book and note Figure 2, "Slacking Shangri-La":

http://www.slackism.com/images/the5habitssample.pdf

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/19, 5:13am)

Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 6:20am

I found this very informative discussion comparing AP and IB programs:

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/education/entries/2005/03/29/advanced_placem.html

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/20, 8:00am)

Saturday, October 6, 2007 - 10:11am

Discovered your interesting discussions yesterday.

A couple SepSchool websites that I enjoy are
http://www.freedomofeducation.net/ and
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/
and of course you are welcome to contribute to our discussions at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SepSchool/?yguid=2353708 . Dale

Monday, October 8, 2007 - 5:28am

Dale, thanks for mentioning this article at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SepSchool/message/23907 -- interesting list!

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 6:55am

Another interesting and relevant thread at

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=107419

also examines NCSSM.

Wednesday, January 30 - 5:27am

This Urban Dictionary definition is pretty funny:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=NCSSM

Monday, February 25 - 7:53am

Someone I know who attended NCSSM with me wrote this novel that takes place there:

http://www.amazon.com/Matter-Faith-Brian-Morin/dp/1933570113

Saturday, May 24 - 12:43am

A Matter of Faith is actually a novel, based roughly on the author's experiences at NCSSM. While the name of the school is unchanged, Morin admitted that there had been much exaggeration for the purposes of the story. The author, Brian Morin, actually came to speak to students about his company and some of his experiences post-NCSSM less than a month ago. As a current student (until June 2008, at least), I would rather this book not be taken as an example of everyday life at S&M. Just because Morin chose to donate all proceeds to the school (to the undying gratitude of the administration), doesn't mean all students are like him.

Also, just out of curiosity, where did you go/what did you do after your NCSSM experience?

Monday, May 26 - 10:08am

I am glad someone at NCSSM finally posted to this thread.

As I implied in the article, I graduated NCSSM in 1984 and then attended NCSU 1984-1988 and graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering (BSME) and have worked full time at NASA since graduation.

Intermixed with my years at NCSU, I participated in the NASA cooperative education program and alternated semesters of school and work 1986-1988.

I would have a hard time saying definitively whether NCSSM made a difference in whether or not I would have gotten my job at NASA because of all the other variables involved.

My main thrust in this article is to encourage people not to delude themselves into viewing NCSSM as some sort of cure-all "Hogwarts" for smart people. As I am sure you have learned by now, it most certainly is not. I also think many students might benefit more from the "Learn and Earn Early College High School" program which would allow them to mature at a more natural pace with loving, caring adults in their immediate families while still getting the challenging academia they crave.

Perhaps you would like to share with us any notable NCSSM experiences, good or bad, and what you would share with those considering it.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 5/26, 10:09am)

Saturday, August 9 - 2:08pm

Those seeking assistance in Advanced Placement (AP) examination preparation would do well to consult this site of free materials from MIT OpenCourseWare.

Monday, September 8 - 5:55am

I just found this excellent site where students can register for a wide range of self-paced mathematics courses for very little cost.

Wednesday, October 15 - 5:03am

Tuition waivers represent one of the main attractions of NCSSM today.�
��
To test the actual net benefits to NCSSM students across a college career, I ran some numbers using information from the Web sites of�NCSU and CVCC (see article for abbreviation meanings and links).
��
These numbers assume that tuition waivers do not apply to CVCC�and that the student can live with his parents for no rent.�
��
The bottom lines show that foregoing NCSSM in favor of acquiring the first two years of higher education at a community college before completing�an undergraduate degree at a UNC university results in marginal extra cost.
��
Think carefully about this touted "benefit" and whether it warrants finding yourself locked in a place former guidance counselor Rena Lindstrom called "an intellectual concentration camp."

��
2008 Cost per Semester�� NCSU No Waiver�� NCSU Waiver�� CVCC
In-State Tuition and Fees�� $2,643�� $0 �� $693
Books and Supplies��$465�� $465�� $465
Room Rent�� $2,469 �� $2,469�� $0
Meals�� $1,529�� $1,529�� $1,529
Other Personal Expenses��$625��$625�� $625
Travel Expenses��$290�� $290 �� $290
Total In-State Expenses��$8,021��$5,378�� $3,602

First Four Semesters��$32,084�� $21,512�� $14,409
Last Four Semesters�� $32,084��$21,512�� N/A
Total Cost with No Waiver�� $64,168 �
Total Cost with Waiver�� $43,024 �
Total Cost with CVCC to NCSU��$46,493
PERCENT OF NORMAL COST��100%�� 67%�� 72%

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 10/15, 9:20am)

Friday, October 17 - 9:16am

Tuition with One Semester Credit via Placement Exams

2008 Cost per Semester	NCSU No Waiver	NCSU Waiver	CVCC
In-State Tuition and Fees	$2,643	$0	$693
Books and Supplies	$465	$465	$465
Room Rent	$2,469	$2,469	$0
Meals	$1,529	$1,529	$1,529
Other Personal Expenses	$625	$625	$625
Travel Expenses	$290	$290	$290
Total In-State Expenses	$8,021	$5,378	$3,602

First Three Semesters	$24,063	$16,134	$10,807
Last Four Semesters	$32,084	$21,512	N/A

Total Cost with No Waiver	$56,147
Total Cost with Waiver		$37,646
Total Cost with CVCC to NCSU			$42,891
PERCENT OF NORMAL COST	100%	67%	76%

Tuition with Two Semesters Credit via Placement Exams

2008 Cost per Semester	NCSU No Waiver	NCSU Waiver	CVCC
In-State Tuition and Fees	$2,643	$0	$693
Books and Supplies	$465	$465	$465
Room Rent	$2,469	$2,469	$0
Meals	$1,529	$1,529	$1,529
Other Personal Expenses	$625	$625	$625
Travel Expenses	$290	$290	$290
Total In-State Expenses	$8,021	$5,378	$3,602

First Two Semesters	$16,042	$10,756	$7,205
Last Four Semesters	$32,084	$21,512	N/A

Total Cost with No Waiver	$48,126
Total Cost with Waiver		$32,268
Total Cost with CVCC to NCSU			$39,289
PERCENT OF NORMAL COST	100%	67%	82%

Tuition with Learn and Earn Early College High School

2008 Cost per Semester	NCSU No Waiver	NCSU Waiver	CVCC
In-State Tuition and Fees	$2,643	$0	$0
Books and Supplies	$465	$465	$465
Room Rent	$2,469	$2,469	$0
Meals	$1,529	$1,529	$1,529
Other Personal Expenses	$625	$625	$625
Travel Expenses	$290	$290	$290
Total In-State Expenses	$8,021	$5,378	$2,909

First Four Semesters	$32,084	$21,512	$11,636
Last Four Semesters	$32,084	$21,512	N/A

Total Cost with No Waiver	$64,168
Total Cost with Waiver		$43,024
Total Cost with CVCC to NCSU			$43,720
PERCENT OF NORMAL COST	100%	67%	68%

Friday, October 17 - 9:26am

I sincerely hope legislators and lobbyists on both sides of this issue look at these numbers and consider the economic benefits versus costs of NCSSM in terms of value delivered to taxpayers.

The preceding tables show bottom line costs to students but do not account for the considerable costs to taxpayers, not just of the fairly new tuition waivers, but the burdensome NCSSM room and board.

Learn and Earn Early College High School places these costs where they belong on the shoulders of the parents. It thus costs taxpayers far less. I do admit disappointment at discovering that Learn and Earn Early College High School requires community service for graduation. I do admit delight at its work service learning requirement as that offers valuable job experience to students.

Saturday, October 25 - 3:33am

In the article I mentioned International Baccalaureate (IB).

A Google search on "critics of International Baccalaureate" uncovered this interesting article which exposes the collectivist agenda of IB.

Many other interesting hits arose as well.

I should mention that when I attended NCSSM, we had no less than three American History textbooks which included Howard Zinn's screed A People's History of the United States.

Friday, October 31 - 9:48am