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Post 20

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Jon writes:
>I refuse to believe that Laj meant what he wrote in the sense that the *choice* to rape can be anything but monstrous. I think I know what he meant and I can think of a better example with which to express it: If the rapist chooses an armed victim and gets killed—then something good came of an attempted rape!....It certainly is a wankish point.

Jon, no-one has bothered to note how much of a pseud, wank-ish *question* it was in the first place! Thus, wank-ish answers are inevitable, tho it was nice of Laj to try to take it seriously. What about murder, is that *more* "totally" evil than rape? What about multiple murders? Was it the choice that was "totally" evil, where the act was partially evil? And what actual difference would that make to the situation? Or are all evil choices "totally" evil - that is, evil to the same, complete degree, and thus, whoops, morally equivalent? Is assault the same as murder? Are we now going to have an argument about what we mean by "total"?

If these seem to be wank-ish answers, it indicates *the question itself* is a wank-ish one for sure. Ask yourself: what *actual problem* is it trying to solve? It just a late-night dorm-bull-session special. What is more wank-ish is Linz's feeble attempt to make out that a perfectly reasonable, rational guy like Laj is actually tacitly endorsing rape. Anyone can see that is not the case, that it is just playing with words to make someone out to be something he or she clearly *isn't*. Anyone can pull this sort of stunt - we see it on this forum all the time, tho usually directed not at alleged 'pomos' but at *other Objectivists*!! It's just a nasty little game, not a serious discussion. Linz is capable of much, much better.

As Laj wrote:
>2. "Totally good"? "Totally evil"? Please, let me know what the word "totally" adds.

Exactly. It's a classic example of the style of word-game Orwell parodied: all evil acts "totally" evil. But some are more "totally" evil than others! Now *that's* wank!

- Daniel



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Post 21

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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I'm so absolutely in agreement with you on this, Linz!

In fact, it meshes well with the discussion about moral perfection on the other thread about Phil Donahue's interview with Rand.

Absolute moral perfection is EASY to human beings, BECAUSE we have free will. We can simply choose to never fuck over anyone else or ourselves, and try our best to get the most out of life, by the same token. That should be pretty simple, right? What kind of psychology out there wants to carve out a place where we can NOT follow such a basic law, even during some supposed moment of weakness? A psychology that considers breaching this is not familiar to my own, and not one I want to know, that's for SURE. Yet that is what the Brandens did to Rand for 4 1/2 years, consciously, every time they met with her with a new version of the ongoing phoney story they were telling her.

NO -- we DON'T ALL DO SUCH THINGS. Those of us who give a damn, make sure we NEVER DO SUCH THINGS, in fact. It's not impossible or very hard. In fact, it's the most SELFISH THING ON EARTH not to do these things! For real!  

Casey

(Edited by Casey Fahy on 10/05, 2:41pm)


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Post 22

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan,

Pomo wankers never see themselves as pomo wanker's, and one doesn't need to walk in a pomo wanker's shoes to appreciate a pomo wanker when one sees one. That's pomo wanker relativism.

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Post 23

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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James,

ahem...

Not to make any kind of insinuation, but the same could be said of the dogmatic, the Randroids, the Branden haters or just about anyone with an axe to grind who is trying to come off as objective.

What I have seen is that the pomo wankish are metaphysically driven. Their thing is reality (especially lack thereof). The more wankish among Objectivists tend toward people, not ideas. All agree on Ayn Rand and her ideas. They just don't agree with each other.

And, of course, it's all relative (or in some cases, relatives).

Michael


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Post 24

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt wrote: "I thought someone should have done that to the Professor in Atlas Shrugged when he told the girl not to cry about her brother (who had died) that it wasn't real anyway. Kick the crap out of him, and tell him it isn't real anyway."

Funny that something similar happened to John Lennon when the Beatles were in their Middle East phase hanging with the Yogi. It was around that time that their manager and Lennon's friend Brian Epstein died, and the Yogi told Lennon just what the professor from ATLAS told the girl. Lennon was so disillusioned from then on. I don't know if he hit the guy, but he gave it to him on THE WHITE ALBUM song "Sexy Sadie" (which was also about the Yogi's sexual daliances, which, apparently were real anyway).

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Post 25

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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James wrote,
"Pomo wankers never see themselves as pomo wanker's, and one doesn't need to walk in a pomo wanker's shoes to appreciate a pomo wanker when one sees one. That's pomo wanker relativism."

For all I know, Linz's acquaintance may indeed be the swamp-dweller that Linz claims he is. I'm just not willing to take Linz's word for it since he can be rather hysterical in his judgments of both people and art.

J

Post 26

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, please invite Hitler ...--oh, never mind.

--Brant


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Post 27

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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Casey, a baby is morally perfect, not having transgressed. Growing up everyone transgresses--that's how we really learn about right and wrong, by being wrong and by experiencing it in and by others thereby learning about justice. They may only be small things, but they loom large in developing moral sensibility. Here's the way I look at it: We build our (moral) lives brick by brick. We make a mistake and put in a bad brick. We see that it is bad and we take it out and put in a good or better brick. Can we then end up "perfect"?

--Brant


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Post 28

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan,

It's not a question of Linz being right or wrong about any intentionally unnamed Person X, is it? I wonder if you've ever met any pomo wankers at all.

Brant,

Pre-learning transgressions are what Rand called "errors of knowledge."

Post-learning errors of the same kind are moral breaches.

We can certainly learn from the latter as well as the former (or, in the case of the latter, learn more, to be precise.)

But let's not confuse the two.

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Post 29

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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> Pre-learning transgressions are what Rand called "errors of knowledge." Post-learning errors of the same kind are moral breaches. [James V]

James, there is no cookbook by which you can say: well he -should- have known philosophical idea X, I explained it to him, therefore the instant after that if he hasn't perfectly integrated it to every action and premise and idea...he's immoral. That's a recipe for being too harsh in your judgment of people by failing to allow for all kinds of mistakes.

Most confusions in the humanities are usually way more complicated than being presented with 2+2=4 and simply choosing to directly evade it or turn away from it.

You are not in a position to know how much a person knows or what kinds of logic or psychoepistemological errors he has habitually been making.

Especially in today's hopeless educational system, which has impeded the thinking of most of us, even the brightest.

Phil

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Post 30

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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To add an example to my previous post:

There are cases where you supposedly 'learned' something and then years later, there is some elementary confusion or mistake which pops up and you slap your head and say "Jeez, I should have known that." The mistake would be in concluding that you -must- have been evading every time this happens, that you were immoral not to know.

Phil

I would like it if, just once or twice a year, I saw an Objectivist being too -lenient- in passing moral judgment, instead of too quick to deny the possibility of honest error.

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Post 31

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

I would be much obliged if you would make a post saying that you are morally perfect. ‘My name is Casey Fahy, and I have attained absolute moral perfection,’ would do. I am embarrassed a little at making this request as I can’t explain very well why I would like to see it, except that in post 21 you note that “Absolute moral perfection is EASY to human beings […]” and it occurs to me that I have never seen one who advocates for this come out and say it of themselves. Would you do that for me?

Jon


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Post 32

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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Rick writes:
>Always look on the bright side? Every cloud has a silver lining? Is the sentiment of these cliches something you really want to persecute?...My thoughts are that we shouldn't be conducting pusball character assassinations...

Rick, you don't seem to realise that one of the most urgent tasks confronting The New Intellectual is revealing the vast evil that underlies such innocent-looking sayings!

Fortunately, Perigo's genius is the equal of this heroic task. It is now quite clear that anyone that could utter such vile thoughts as "T'is an ill wind that blows nobody any good" or "Every cloud has a silver lining" can only be swamp-dwelling slime, the kind of cultist who would be an apologist for - and perhaps even celebrate - the horror of 9/11! Surely they richly deserve their "sores oozing pus" and every other nutty character-assasination our fevered imaginations can invent!

>Good goin' Sherlock...

It certainly is a classic.

-Daniel




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Post 33

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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You're right Daniel, I see that now.

I hope others will sweep what I said under the rug while I try to reharmonise my sense of life and forget the meaning of the words "brown nosers". Certianly this is a place for perspectives and ideas, but lets not hear any others.


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Post 34

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Except for the fact that I popped an eye open for this when I should be sleeping, YUP.

I absolutely never try to screw anyone over, including myself, and try to better myself all the time. What more do you ask of me for perfection, oh Godly one?

Casey

p.s. back to sleep guys. Talk amongst yourselves...

(Edited by Casey Fahy on 10/05, 7:29pm)


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Post 35

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
"You are not in a position to know how much a person knows or what kinds of logic or psychoepistemological errors he has habitually been making."

While I agree that many are too quick to judge, i.e. have insufficient information and poor moral judgment, your statement suggests  that no one is ever in a position to pass moral judgment on another.  This is a theme you have been sounding for months. (That I know of.)  It doesn't take 3 PhDs in philosophy, psychology, and criminology and years of intimate personal knowledge of someone to make a well-founded ethical estimate of a person's actions and indeed of the person. 

It just takes the same kind of care one should exercise when trying to correctly form any judgment.  More difficult in the case of people, not impossible, nor anywhere near as difficult as your posts on the topic suggest.


Post 36

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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Rick writes:
>You're right Daniel, I see that now...I hope others will sweep what I said under the rug while I try to reharmonise my sense of life and forget the meaning of the words "brown nosers"

Yes, my child, your long nightmare of reason and sanity is finally over.

- Daniel

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Post 37

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

In many cases, I agree, I am in no position to know if the person "knew better" or should have "known better." In many cases, however, I am. Certain items of moral knowledge are not that tricky or unknown. The idea that I am chronically unable to judge people, morally, because of alleged ignorance of personal context has been overstated. It is, of course, a matter of context.

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Post 38

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I can confirm Casey's testimony. He is morally perfect -- and then some!

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Post 39

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

You've boiled the Objectivist ethics down to much simpler propositions than Rand managed to:

Absolute moral perfection is EASY to human beings, BECAUSE we have free will. We can simply choose to never fuck over anyone else or ourselves, and try our best to get the most out of life, by the same token. That should be pretty simple, right? What kind of psychology out there wants to carve out a place where we can NOT follow such a basic law, even during some supposed moment of weakness? A psychology that considers breaching this is not familiar to my own, and not one I want to know, that's for SURE. Yet that is what the Brandens did to Rand for 4 1/2 years, consciously, every time they met with her with a new version of the ongoing phoney story they were telling her.

Remember that Rand's notion of perfection means never failing to practice any of the virtues, at any time.  Never failing at independence.  Never failing at productiveness.  Never failing to think about something that you sense a need to think about but makes you uncomfortable.  Never (unless you just recently started on the right path, and still need to work off a load of confusion and unearned guilt from your benighted past) having less than high self-esteem. Maybe never needing to raise your self-esteem any further.  If you factor in fictional portrayals (is there any doubt that Rand considered these relevant?), never really feeling pain, fear, guilt, hatred, or any other negative emotion, with the possible exception of anger at those who have genuinely done wrong.

As you may know, if you've seen my exchanges with Laj and Roger Bissell, I'm a defender of incompatibilist free will, on a model fairly close to Rand's own.  But, as a psychologist, I doubt the credibility or applicability of any moral system that presumes the unity of the virtues (as Rand does in her treatement of pride, for example); that fails to deal with the goal and value conflicts that arise during our development as individuals; or that claims that basic human emotions can be transcended, as opposed to being repressed.

There are different kinds of moral failings.  Many of them fall well short of deliberately lying to someone who thinks you (still) love her, and keeping up the lies for 4 1/2 years.  Nathaniel and Barbara Branden didn't have to tell those lies to Rand; they knew well enough how to be honest about the issues in question, thought they should be, and persisted in being dishonest.  See, I agree with you and Jim about this.

But it simply does not follow that because two other people lied to Rand for 4 1/2 years, and at some later time they publicly criticized her character and actions, that Rand had no moral failings.  Indeed, there is other evidence concerning Rand's character and actions besides NB and BB's memoirs.  Some of it comes from Rand's own writings.

Robert Campbell

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 10/06, 5:49am)


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