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Post 0

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 2:51amSanction this postReply
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The separation of marriage and state is a worthy long-term objective, but it does nothing for people who are faced with forcible state discrimination today, and realistically - assuming that Objectivist ideas continue to penetrate the culture at the current rate - for people who are faced with forcible state discrimination within the next five centuries or so. In the meantime, if I want my grandchildren to grow up in a normal two-parent family, then I must work to have official recognition extended to same-sex marriages within the decade. Patience, my friend, is for those who can be happy with its results.

Post 1

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 4:36amSanction this postReply
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Indeed Adam, thpse people have the problem now and a seperation of marriage and state would be a long-term goal. They have to fear discrimination due to the increase of gay-bashing (perhaps as a fear-reaction on their provocative eccentricity).
And this fear is nothing to be taken lightly, so their short-term goal is the chance to live peacefully, which is still a big problem in the USA.
It seems the enlightenment about same-sex hasn't reach the core of the US knowledge or is surpressed by some over-religious zealots.
I can understand that evangelics have a problem with church marriage of gays and I can also understand that those Republicans see it as a disgrace to the state-sponsored marriage for an increase of the nation's population.

However, those are statist or religious points of view that should not influence the problem lying behind the obvious. Gays still have a hard time, although not as hard as two decades ago. There fight for gay-marriage is mostly the fight for independency and acceptance as human beings.


Post 2

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 5:42amSanction this postReply
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The problems here get to the very root and rock of what a "state" is.  Essentially, our conceptual difficulties are based on Aristotle.  Aristotle's Politics made the family the basis for society.  Aristotle differentiated the family from the polis in many ways.  Among them, while the house has one master, that would be inappropriate for a state.  However, Aristotle begins with the family, not the individual.

When my first wife and I wanted to marry, we had a problem with her age.  I consulted my mother's lawyer and he said that we kids had other things to do with our money than to pay him and that I was bright enough to read a West's for myself.  So, I got some help at the main branch of the Cleveland Public Library and read about marriage law.  Case in point for us: A 30+ year old man takes a not-21 year old girl across state lines for a marriage.  The parents press the law.  The judge interviews the couple and decides that, yes, they really do want to be married; and the judge ruled in their favor -- because family is the basis of society.  (Ohio had a law then and perhaps now still that any marriage not legal in Ohio is still not legal if two residents of Ohio go to another state where that marriage would be legal.  That would seem to violate the "full faith and credit" of Article IV section 1 especially and also Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution.  Nonetheless, the law stood.)

Any two or more people can gain most of the legal benefits of marriage through contracts. Inheritance and medical determinations are easy examples.  Adoption is complicated by government intervention in ways for which even Objectivists do not have a consensus opinion.  To me, if you are going to have a government, then the government has a compelling interest in the rights of all the individuals within its area and that means protecting children.  Therefore, the government oversees adoptions.  Therefore, the government again looks at what is and is not a family qua family.

The Aristotlean prejudice for family is so strong that insurance companies even accept it unquestioned.  The wars of words over whether gay partners and transgendered couples and everything else is covered in an insurance policy all come down to the fact that insurance companies recognize the family -- not individuals -- as the basis of society.  When you fill out the forms, you do not just get to sign up two to four friends for healthcare coverage as some kind of bonus in recognition of your philanthropy.  But you can have a wife and 10 kids and they all get coverage.  The forms are designed that way.  It is a basic assumption -- and it exists in a free market, driven by profit, controlled by the wealthiest and most powerful businesses, in insurers.  If the carriers did not want to provide it, the Supreme Court could not force them: they would go offshore.  Yet, the insurance carriers recognize the obvious fact of life that families exist -- because "everyone else does" and they are just "responding to the market."

Contract law provides paths for non-traditional families to enjoy the benefits that default to natural families.  The few agoric alternatives may be more challenging -- and more compelling. 

I went to a small private college for the first two years.  When we paid tuition, etc., we paid for our meals for the year and each time through the cafeteria we were checked off on a list with boxes and they knew us all by name in a few weeks.  Guests paid.  All guests paid.  Even Mom paid.  The pre-paid benefit of 20 meals per week (no Sunday dinner) only applied to students.  The "Objectivist" solution might be to de-reify the family.  Only individuals exist.  

Adam Reed suggests taking our wins where we can, to gain now for this decade and let the next 500 years come later.  I disagree.  Remember that in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, the old liberals said that the world was not ready for mixed race couples.  Here we are 40 years later, and government forms and corporate forms let you check off "Mixed" (or some synonym) for your "race" or "ethnicity".  The world changed.  The world changes overnight for a good idea. 

I am not sure what a "good idea" is in this case.  I am sure that no one else seems to know, either.


Post 3

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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Assuming gay marriage became legally recognized, what about polygamy?  Would the polyamorists begin a campaign to have their relationships legally institutionalized?  Has anyone seen rumblings in this direction?  I would guess that some polyamorous clusters seek the same benefits that their monogamous counterparts enjoy.

Post 4

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Good point, Luther - if your health is up to it....

Post 5

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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I think the best current solution is the one we were evolving toward before the San Francisco and Massachusetts left power grabs occurred: civil union for gays with equal laws with straights; then, eventually, the state only involved with civil unions for all and marriage being a private matter for all.

Post 6

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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This is a contentious issue, for sure, but James' approach is one that I'm behind.  Make civil unions legal.  It doesn't matter to me what the state or "society" calls it, as long as they will enforce the contract I decide to enter into.  I predict that eventually civil unions would be viewed as equal to marriage (or vice-versa, to be more accurate) and people would realize that all such unions are in fact "civil unions."  This would allow for a more realistic chance of getting government out of the "marriage" business and make it simply recognize contractual obligations.

As far as the point made about marriage allowing all sorts of rights-trampling evils - like companies being forced to provide benefits to the spouse:  it's a fair point and one that should be addressed.  But in our current arrangement, given the facts as they are, it would seem civil unions are the way to go.

Jason

(Edited by Jason Dixon on 3/27, 11:18am)


Post 7

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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Luke Setzer wrote:"  ... what about polygamy?  Would the polyamorists begin a campaign ..."

The history of Utah is an indicator of the issues that Objectivists need to confront and solve if they are to "change the world."  Utah was denied statehood specifically because they allowed polygamy.  Polygamy is very Biblical. Howe was it that Utah gave in on a principle of Mormonism and a historical reality for Christians and Jews?

I agree, Luther, 100% with you that the princple issues are logically undeniable.  Yet, people do deny them.

All we can do with wait and see -- and if you have more than one S.O., keep it your  own business.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/27, 11:18am)


Post 8

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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"How was it that Utah gave in on a principle of Mormonism and a historical reality for Christians and Jews?"

Federal agents came to Utah and started putting Mormon men who had more than one wife in federal prisons. My great-grandfather escaped to Mexico. Many large families endured a lot of hardship due to the loss of their fathers because people living in eastern cites were "offended" by the beliefs of the Mormons as written up in the newspapers of the time, and demanded "action". The Church received a "revelation" that told them they should obey the law of the land they were living in. Some small fraction broke away and formed their own church and continued the practice of having multiple wives.

I personally believe people should be able to freely associate with each other in any way they desire, the government has no business handing out special favors for particular lifestyles but should fulfill their role of protecting all freely entered into contracts equally.

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Post 9

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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I remember reading a very interesting historical overview of the role of marriage in The Psychology of Romantic Love by Nathaniel Branden.

As I understand it, legally, marriage is basically a property agreement - with special emphasis on child rearing, assets and inheritance. If under the law a child can be considered as a form of "property" until maturity, all family law is in essence the same as contract law.

Why this type of contract should be denied to homosexuals and even other human social arrangements is beyond me. A good case almost could be made for this on the premise of separation of church and state.

I would restrict marriage law to the same species, however.  //;-)

I disagree with the conclusion that the state must be excluded from marriage, i.e. from protecting this form of contract - unless and until a system comes about whereby government protection of property rights is no longer needed or used.

Practically, I think James's solution is the most effective - and it is happening. Call it "civil union" or what you will right now, but keep the property laws (the essence) the same as for heterosexual marriage. Changing the name later to marriage then will be very easy.

btw - A very amusing position on marriage was given by Harry Browne in How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, except he was serious. It has been years since I read it, but if I remember correctly, he stated that if you truly love your spouse and want to ensure the longevity and health of the relationship, divorce immediately so as to arrive at a proper definition and division of conjugal property.

Michael

Post 10

Monday, March 28, 2005 - 4:27amSanction this postReply
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A good case almost could be made for this on the premise of separation of church and state.

It kinda comes down to the fact that we live such a religious country. I don't know how it is in Europe or other places where the government is not so heavily influenced by religionists. I think gay marriage will probably become legal over there first. Both my brother and my sister are gay, so I may be a bit biased when it comes to gay marriage. I do have hope that barriers will be broken down in my lifetime. I do see progress, but I think there are still some sodomy laws in existence. Those gotta go.

I strongly believe that marriage should remain a government sanctioned union. My sister has been living with the same woman for about ten years. That is longer than most marriages last nowadays. Sure there are domestic partner benefits and other positive steps that have come about recently, but why shouldn't they be allowed to "make it legal?"  I think one of the reasons is that people are freaked by the thought of children living in such an arrangement. This is especially true with lesbian couples. People don't want to see Heather have two mommies. It makes them uncomfortable.

Why people feel threatened by this, I will probably never understand. It most likely is negative stereotyping of gays and the fact that many people fear a lifestyle they are unable to comprehend, based on misguided ideas of morality. As more gay couples come out and say "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it," and don't stay in the closet, and when society sees that gays are and will always be in long-term loving relationships on par with marriage, laws against gay marriage will come crashing down. Homosexuality is normal, and although it may not be for everyone, every individual should have the right to marriage if they choose to do so.

Is it just me or does it seem that the most outspoken critics of gay marriage are people who are in straight marriages?  Makes you wonder why they want to keep the gays single and available in case they decide to get divorced..... and why are the cute ones always gay?

(kitty bolts for the kitchen.... fast)



Post 11

Monday, March 28, 2005 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
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As more gay couples come out and say "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it," and don't stay in the closet, and when society sees that gays are and will always be in long-term loving relationships on par with marriage, laws against gay marriage will come crashing down.

Amen, Kat.  Coming out is one of the most important things a gay person can do.  I'm convinced that being secret about such a fundamental part of one's identity is psychologically damaging; and contributing to the stereotype that only leather daddies and drag queens are gay can only hurt the very people who are in the closet, and is an insult to all of the people courageous enough to refuse to fake reality for any person. 

Jason


Post 12

Monday, March 28, 2005 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Well, I have special reasons with mormons, but that left aside, polygamy could be allowed to define their own sort of marriage.
However, marriage, as it is defined today, consists of a male and a female or at least two sexual or loving partners. So, the question about polygamy is not so interesting, if the state would pull out at all.

I have a question on mormons, because there are many rumors and (maybe false) reports and TV Coverage that present mormons as close religious sects. They often have a cultist, sectish outlay that gives polygamy an authoritarian scheme by forcing female partners to marry and live with a before-selected man, or else being beaten and harassed in the community.

I don't know whether this might be a fraud report, or a mistatement of won overly "emanzipated" female activist, or just the case with some weired settlements...


Post 13

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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It was nice to be able to sanction STD for once.

Post 14

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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Ted writes:

> It was nice to be able to sanction STD for once.

Methinks you're reaching for a double entendre here!

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 15

Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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I enjoyed this thread for the different perspectives.  As I see it, equality under the law is a basic principle of legal philosophy that should make it illegal for the state to discriminate between straight and gay.  And the constitution, properly interpreted, should take care of that.  But, I'd like to point out that any license, whether one is getting a license to operate a business, or a license to get married should be seen as a prohibition.  The state is saying, "Meet the terms of this license, as decreed, or you will prohibited from this entire class of actions."

 

The state only has the following fundamental power: To direct the use of force, and its two derivatives: to prohibit and to confiscate (both of which presuppose the capacity to direct force, or to threaten to direct force).  That's it.  Prohibit or confiscate.  So when a state issues a license what it is really doing is threatening that it will use force against anyone who engages in the actions defined by the terms of the license without meeting the specified terms.  It is a prohibition (backed by the threat of force). 

 

The terms of the license are whatever the state says.  Maybe you have to be a certain age, and/or pay a fee, and/or get a blood-test, and/or as once was the case be of the same race, or are of opposite genders.

 

A license is always a case of the state threatening to use force against those who have violated no one's rights.

 

The state has a proper function in providing a mechanism for resolving civil disputes.  We have a rich body of contract law that plays an important part in enabling a rational method for resolving many disputes.  There can be specialized terms in contract law for different kinds of contracts but none of that should go to the point of telling individuals what they can or cannot do so long as they do not engage in the initiation of force, threat to initiate force, steal or commit fraud.

 

When the state creates license laws, they are not simply enabling contracts or engaging in contract resolution - such as any law relating to civil unions.  No, they are prohibiting some people from entering into a contract.

 

The business of putting the state in charge of the definition of marriage is both offensive and dangerous and it is also a subterfuge.  A romantic relationship (regardless of its economic impacts or effects on child custody or inheritance) is between the parties and not the government.  We should be offended that the state intrudes to tell us what romantic relationships we can have.  If some man decides to marry his pet duck, I won't go to the wedding and will steer clear of him, but if he can find someone to marry them that is his right (although it might be a case of cruelty to animals).  Would I call that a "marriage"?  I would call it a neurotic or even psychotic kind of marriage.  Those who try to mix up the definition of a word with the state's power to prohibit are falling for a kind of intellectual bait and switch.  Like those who focus on a license as 'giving' something to someone, instead of focusing on how it is actually a method for prohibiting actions to others.



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