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Post 0

Sunday, October 12 - 7:41amSanction this postReply
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The beauty of the written word is its permanence. It allows us to go back and check what was said against what was meant.

In a sense then, the written word is better than the spoken word -- though writing won't ever fully capture a face-to-face encounter. I can argue quite well in discussion forums like this. I can hold my own with literally anyone in front of an audience of judging peers. I like the permanence. I benefit from it. But, and this involves some assumption, but get me on the live-debate microphone against a Ted Keer, a Michael Marotta, or a Jordan -- and I would look like a kid with a BB gun trying to hold his ground against an advancing tank.

It would be devastating.

Ed




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Post 1

Sunday, October 12 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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I tend to look at live "public master debating" with a more skeptical eye than written forums such as this one. Sophists can use good looks, charm, and rhetoric to devastate the most logical arguments advanced in the form of stammering, plain looks, unimaginative explanations, and so forth. It seems an inescapable part of human nature that makes delivery count even more than content in live debates for better or for worse.



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Post 2

Sunday, October 12 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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ET:  ...  but get me on the live-debate microphone against a Ted Keer, a Michael Marotta, or a Jordan...
See, you already made a mistake.  While it is true that I am good in public, you missed Luke Setzer.  He has worked through two Toastmasters books, I think.  We can assume that he can debate quite well, which is why he does not value that master style. 

That said, I often do not hold my own well in arguments, for personal reasons, passive-aggressive responses.  If you want to argue with me, I stop being invested in showing you the one true path to enlightenment and I am happy to let you be wrong for the rest of your life.  I drop discussions here on RoR and other places with the same motivation, or lack of it.

In a criminology seminar, we were assigned sides on the question of Capital Punishment.  Then, later, we were assigned the opposite sides.  I think I did well both times.  Personally, I am opposed to capital punishment.  However, it is easy enough to forcefully and cleverly put forward the arguments for it.  Being clever does not make you right.

About 15 years ago, I think that it was Carolyn Marvin in the close of her book, When Old Technologies Were New, who said that in the online world, with our opportunities to archive and re-read and to reflect, the person is verbose (and wrong) is more often ignored, whereas in live social engagements, the person who is wrong (lacking facts and lacking logic) will be deferred to as long as they hold the floor.




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Post 3

Monday, October 13 - 3:14amSanction this postReply
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Actually, all my Toastmasters talks were solo and not debates. One of our club members was on the debate team in college many years ago and worked as a Florida state prosecutor for a number of years before changing careers to atmospheric physics. I find him likeable at times and irritating at others, with his speech praising former supervisor Janet Reno an example of the latter.

I have given talks about Objectivism to freethought groups and faced quite a bit of hostility from some of them. Those were not "debates" but mere exchanges. A formal "debate" normally takes a format along the lines of affirmative-negative on some proposition. This forces argument for the sake of winning rather than reaching for truth and rewards sophistry rather than honesty. I have considered a speech addressing the problems with this approach and why I have so little respect for it.

I agree with MEM's observation that online forums allow us to ignore blowhards whereas a drawing room conversation affords no such luxury. This makes selectivity of social events all the more important. Filtering blowhards from life enhances quality of life.

I also agree with MEM's strategy of disengaging from arguments with wrong-headed people and focusing on enjoying life instead.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 10/13, 3:18am)




Post 4

Monday, October 13 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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You remind me Ed, of my highschool geology class, where we held debates monthly. Specifically, I remember a debate where the opposing sides were "the Earth is shrinking" versus "the Earth is expanding." (I asked why I couldn't say the Earth is constant, the teacher said that trying to prove the obvious is no challenge.) It was indeed an exercise in pure sophistry, but based on articles from 50's and 60's issues of Scientific American. After winning the debate for my side (I forget which) with ten minutes to spare in the period, I asked to argue the opposite side. After a second vote, my new side won as well. I assure you, Luke, it had nothing to do with looks.

I do not watch presidential debates. Seeing the Republicans botch their side's arguments so badly is painful.



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Post 5

Monday, October 13 - 6:25amSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:

After winning the debate for my side (I forget which) with ten minutes to spare in the period, I asked to argue the opposite side. After a second vote, my new side won as well.

Toohey did this in The Fountainhead for the resolution, "The pen is mightier than the sword."



Post 6

Monday, October 13 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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That's right. Forgot that. Hadn't read Rand yet, was still a year in the future. But I've never sprayed someone with a hose to ruin his suit, nor counselled my niece against young love.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 10/13, 6:34am)




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Post 7

Monday, October 13 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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TK:  Seeing the Republicans botch their side's arguments so badly is painful.

 

Is that an objective observation?  Do you mean that Senator McCain is a poor speaker?  Given his party platform, he fails to make the points well?

Do you mean -- as I understand you -- that the Republican Party represents your own opinions and you wish that they did a better job of putting forward your social agenda?  In other words, you are willing to accept the privilege of getting rich from government subsidies for your business, in exchange for homophobic and misogynist laws and a nationalist government religion taught in the public schools? 
(How is this different than the wahabbi Muslims whom you claim to revile?)

Let's be clear, here, Theodore.
From the 2008 Republican Party Platform
http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/

The Industrial Revolution treated people like machines; today’s economy must treat them as individuals. ... such as removing outdated distinctions between full time and part time, clock-punching and overtime.  ... For increasing numbers of workers, especially those with children, the choice of working from home will be good for families, profitable for business, and energy efficient.

The symbol of our unity, to which we all pledge allegiance, is the flag. By whatever legislative method is most feasible, Old Glory should be given legal protection against desecration. We condemn decisions by activist judges to deny children the opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance in public school.

Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.

Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman...

The public display of the Ten Commandments does not violate the U.S. Constitution and accurately reflects the Judeo-Christian heritage of our country. We support the right of students to engage in student-initiated, student-led prayer in public schools, athletic events, and graduation ceremonies, when done in conformity with constitutional standards.

The federal government has a special responsibility to the people in Indian country and a unique trust relationship with them, which has been insufficiently honored. The social and economic problems that plague Indian country have grown worse over the last several decades, and we must reverse that trend.
[That lays the blame on the administrations of Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush... and the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. I will not even bother to address the obviously destructive paterrnalism of that so-called "special relationship."  MEM]





Post 8

Monday, October 13 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
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Lay off the fake homophobe-"concern" condescension you bug-eyed fuck.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 10/13, 8:11am)




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Post 9

Monday, October 13 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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With comments like that, one wonders about shoe fittings...


 In other words, you are willing to accept the privilege of getting rich from government subsidies for your business, in exchange for homophobic and misogynist laws and a nationalist government religion taught in the public schools? 

That is a perfectly legitimate question to ask, considering those are the agenda of the Party as it seems today - anti-gay, anti- women laws, and Christianity [fundamentalist preferred] forced on the youth in public schools...




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Post 10

Monday, October 13 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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TK:  Lay off the fake homophobe-"concern" condescension you bug-eyed fuck.

Does this mean we're not friends any more?




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Post 11

Monday, October 20 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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TK:  Lay off the fake homophobe-"concern" condescension you bug-eyed fuck.
MEM: Does this mean we're not friends any more?
I guess it does.  This is cross-posted from MSK's Objectivist Living in Ted Keer's topic on Jesuits.  I replied positively.  He replied to the reply.  This is my reply to the reply to the reply.


Ted, your profanity on RoR was not uncharacteristic. In fact, over the last year, I have seen you more than once write things that were embarrassing to read. So, yes, I was embarrassed, though not for myself. We all have bad days and I have cut you a lot of slack because I perceive you as a complicated and intelligent person. However, through all of that, something that Barbara Branden said here about a failed friendship stayed with me.

I assure you here and now -- and I will repeat this on RoR -- that I had little regard at all for your homosexuality qua se and cited the GOP Platform on "Marriage" only as one point among several to underscore the difference between the political principles of the Republican Party and Objectivism, for instance on the question of prayer in public schools -- again, that among others.

If you wish to show that other principles -- such as support for the free market -- are more important as points of agreement, then that is a debate we can have. ... or could have, had you not just now threatened to punch me in the face, a phrase you have used before in other contexts. I can only take you at your word and will stand clear of you should we ever be in the same place at the same time.


 




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