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Post 0

Tuesday, September 30 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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I think this is profound and true, and a much better theory of love than Rand's in practice. You get out of love what you put into it.



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Post 1

Tuesday, September 30 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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I consider a hybrid approach optimal wherein one finds another soul of basic compatibility and then consciously cultivates a relationship through the rational use of empathic listening, etc.

This requires one to educate oneself aggressively on how to relate empathically with others as well as other techniques such as seduction and so forth.

Sadly, little to none of this gets taught in schools, government or otherwise, hence I said "educate oneself" in the preceding paragraph.



Post 2

Tuesday, September 30 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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I agree, luke. But why would you expect love to be taught in school? This is what parents are for.



Post 3

Tuesday, September 30 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Government schools don't have a record of teaching ANYTHIING well (except maybe conformity)... but looking towards a better world where schools are free market services it would be a different story.

Learning those psychological principles of key importance to living life well IS one of the things that should be taught in school. Parents should be models of how to love, then help their kids to identify principles and coach the kids and to help them understand their feelings, but teaching is best done by specialists.



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Post 4

Wednesday, October 1 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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How is this a better theory of love and marriage than Rand's? Tolkein seems to be advocating a platonic idealist standards where no marriage is perfect unless ones platonic ideal mate is found. There is no such thing, humans are dynamic so to suggest a perfect ideal exists is non-sensical and pays no respect to chosen values and actions throughout life. A good marriage is a eudaemonic one of cultivated interaction between two people with similar core values. The best, most fulfilling relationship, is the one which cultivates the most rewarding interactions over the longest time with the best possible match that rational non-omniscient entities can find within their limited lifetimes.





Post 5

Wednesday, October 1 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Rand's theory is a description of where love comes from and what it is made of, Tolkien, where he says, "...the real soul-mate is the one you are actually married to," is talking about how to maximize it, with your focus and commitment - like the Country song, "Love the one you are with." They are compatible theories and Luke had it right in post #1.



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Post 6

Wednesday, October 1 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Nevertheless, Tolkien starts out by saying

"Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world, or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one) both partners might be found more suitable mates"

Which undermines the part Steve quotes. Finding a suitable mate is a starting point, not the end point, of a healthy fulfilling relationship. Tolkein is implicitly saying that finding the perfect mate is the end goal, as if you can just sit back and relax after that, he is not saying that building the perfect relationship is the goal. This statement, and the one you quote, are contradictory viewpoints about relationships, they can not both be true. Either you have one perfect 'soul mate' (an irrational platonic ideal) or you cultivate the best relationship possible with the best match possible.



Post 7

Wednesday, October 1 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I think you are mis-reading that quote. He says, in effect: Sure, it we had a perfect world, you could find the perfect mate. And it is remotely possible that some extensive search would find a better partner. But those aren't reality - we don't live in a perfect world, and some elaborate extensive search isn't going to happen - so you need to focus on the mate you do have.

Try reading it again and see if that isn't what you get. Are others seeing it that way?



Post 8

Wednesday, October 1 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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No I agree with Michael Dickey's assesment, that's not how I'm reading it either. Toliken even said "or even with a little more care in this very imperfect [world], both partners might be found more suitable mates. But the real soul-mate is the one you are actually married to." And makes the claim most marriages are mistakes, even happy ones!! Well mistakes how? Because you can find a more suitable mate if you look a little harder. But why? The notion is that if you spend a little bit more time, you could find a better mate, even if you're happy with the one now. Oh, and by the way, the one you're with now is your soul mate, even though it's most likely that relationship is a mistake. Huh?

I'm not entirely sure what he's getting at as I don't know what he means by "soul mate" and "suitable mate", or why someone who would be more suitable would not be that soul mate? The statement at least on the surface seems to me to be at worst a contradiction and at best purposely vague by not defining "suitable" and "soul" and explaining how that pertains to a marriage being a "mistake".

Why would taking a little bit more care mean you can find a more suitable mate while the one you're with now is your soul mate? Would that mean it's possible your soul mate is not all that "suitable"? And if so how would they be your soul mate then?

And then, how does he figure you would find a more suitable mate if given more time or care even in an imperfect world? Where does he base that on? If we assume cultivating a healthy relationship over-time is what makes your partner a soul mate (a notion I agree with), then there would not be a more suitable mate than the one you are with, as otherwise that would imply you don't need to cultivate a healthy relationship over time with someone that shares your values in order for there to exist a more "suitable" mate.

Toliken implies a platonic standard for "suitable mate" (because if you take a little care you can find a better one) but seems to dismiss the importance of finding such an ideal mate (because the one you're with is your ideal mate). So while he establishes such a platonic existence as reality, he then seeks to confuse the issue epistemologically by stating such a quest for finding a more suitable mate, even though your current happy relationship is a mistake, is not worth it. It's almost Kantian in its view by establishing an epistemological truth (you can find a more suitable mate) and then seeking to destroy the idea of an objective reality (your marriage is a mistake, even if you're happy).

If you are happy, and your spouse is your soul mate, how is it a mistake? I would answer, it's not a mistake, and there does not exist a more suitable mate since cultivating a healthy relationship over-time with someone that shares your values is what makes a relationship good and thus a 'non-mistake'.




Post 9

Wednesday, October 1 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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The way I see it is that I can just "get chicks" by walking up to them and saying:

You know, you look kinda' cute. You know, I may not be Mr. Right, but I'm your Mr. "right now", baby. So, while you're waiting for your soul-mate, what do you say we get the heck out of here and synchronize our watches -- or something like that?
Ed
[don't be a player-hater, yo]




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Post 10

Wednesday, October 1 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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More sincerely now, I have to concur with Erica Jong on the matter:

Love is everything that it's cracked up to be. That's why people are so cynical about it. It really is worth fighting for, being brave for, risking everything for. And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more.
... and, by extension, I have to concur with Luke and Steve and Ted on this one.
 
Ed




Post 11

Thursday, October 2 - 5:27amSanction this postReply
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The point, using my own words now, is to refrain from taking the utmost care in finding your most-suitable mate -- because that's not risky enough to optimize your expected benefit. But to avoid refraining from taking the utmost care in relating to the mate you have or mates you will have -- because that's necessary for your optimized benefit.

Ed




Post 12

Thursday, October 2 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, how is any of that better than Rand's idea of love? I still don't follow.

"The point, using my own words now, is to refrain from taking the utmost care in finding your most-suitable mate -- because that's not risky enough to optimize your expected benefit."

So you're saying better to take on a huge risk by not taking the utmost care because the reward is higher. But in what manner do you not take utmost care? Do you care enough to find someone who shares your values? Any values at all? How about taking a risk on someone who shares none of your values? Is the reward more optimal that way because the risk is higher? Actually sounds irrational to me. People spend countless hours making sure they invest their money wisely, or pick the right home suitable for their desires and needs, but now when it comes to finding love, don't spend too much time on that because then you're being too risk averse and you won't get the optimal benefit of love. Huh? I don't see how being risk averse or risk-seeking has anything to do with optimizing love, and would tend to think risk-seeking behavior makes matters much worse. The fallacy that should be avoided is thinking one can find the platonic ideal of a mate, that you could find someone that shares 100% all of your values, as opposed to finding a mate that shares enough of your core values where you can flourish together and cultivate a long-term healthy relationship.


"But to avoid refraining from taking the utmost care in relating to the mate you have or mates you will have -- because that's necessary for your optimized benefit."

Ok, so don't take utmost care in relating to your mate? Relate in what way and why avoid taking the utmost care?



Post 13

Thursday, October 2 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, just to make sure I understand you, your "utmost care" uses time as a constraining context wherein the "utmost care" would take an eternity and "less than optimal care" would result in a train wreck.

Does that capture what you mean in a nutshell?



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Post 14

Thursday, October 2 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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John, thanks for the reply.

First off I agree that Tolkien does imply a platonic ideal, as you say. But he goes on, in the next breath, to decry it. Like Ted said, "Love is practical." Now Ted didn't actually say that exactly -- but, if I can speak for him here and now, that's what he meant.

So, when you ask how that's better than Rand's idea of love I'd have to say that it is only in those times where Rand's idea is more ideal than practical. Of course, that's question-begging -- because I haven't outlined which times Rand's idea is more ideal than practical (but mere stated that it will be sometimes). However, instead of just pulling thoughts out of my wee-hoo from an armchair, the reason that I know that Rand's idea will sometimes be too ideal in practice is because of having "been there / done that."

I call it John Galt Syndrome, and it's when folks look for perfect soul-mates -- it's when minor flaws are blown out of proportion as with a high-power microscope. Ever see a dust-mite under a high-power microscope? It's one of the scariest things I've ever seen, yet never will there ever be a time when I need actually fear one of them. That's proportion, and it's what's lost when folks have become stricken with John Galt Syndrome.

So you're saying better to take on a huge risk by not taking the utmost care because the reward is higher. But in what manner do you not take utmost care? Do you care enough to find someone who shares your values? Any values at all? How about taking a risk on someone who shares none of your values? Is the reward more optimal that way because the risk is higher?
I'm saying that dust-mites aren't really something to spend time in hiding from, and that John Galts aren't really something to spend time in pursuit of. It's an instance of the Gambler's fallacy:

=========================
Desperately Seeking "John": If I just hold out ... just a little while longer ... I'll meet "him" and then, and then, I'll be happy.

Tolkien: But your life is more than half over now, and what you're doing isn't working. Searching for your perfect soul-mate is, on net, decreasing your potential happiness.

Desperately Seeking "John": I know, I know. But I read Atlas Shrugged, and it was real for Dagny, and I want that, too. You can't blame me for wanting what I want and for wanting better (than life affords).

Tolkien: Yes I can. I can blame your relative unhappiness on your very own unrealistic expectations.

Desperately Seeking "John": You know something? You're right. You're kinda' cute, too. Do you want to go out for dinner, J.R.R.?
=========================

The fallacy that should be avoided is thinking one can find the platonic ideal of a mate, that you could find someone that shares 100% all of your values, as opposed to finding a mate that shares enough of your core values where you can flourish together and cultivate a long-term healthy relationship.
Exactly.

"But to avoid refraining from taking the utmost care in relating to the mate you have or mates you will have -- because that's necessary for your optimized benefit."

Ok, so don't take utmost care in relating to your mate?
John, you must've missed it but I used a double-negative (avoid refraining). Relating well to others is a necessary step toward human flourishing. "Active listening" -- a psychology concept -- is probably the most important tool for that.

Ed




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Post 15

Thursday, October 2 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Tolkien's disdain for the "Platonic Standard of love" is so obvious, it seems like Michael and John must have tried awfully hard to misunderstand his comment.

The point is that love, like knowledge, is contextual. You can't keep questioning a relationship because something better might come along, just as you have to make a decision to act on limited knowledge and can't sit in indecision because you have not achieved "perfect certainty." At some point you have to commit. Love is not just a reward given to virtue - it is a common investment worked at hard over the years. Rand made an obvious mistake when she had her affair with Branden. I can't say whether Frank was really her ideal. (It is implied in PAR that Nick was her first choice, but he was gay.) But I get the impression that she thought she "deserved" Branden. But what did she "build" with him? And to whom did she turn in the end?

Of course I agree with much of what Rand said about love if taken in the right context and with a grain of reality. But she was not an expert. She was a lonely, awkward, love-starved girl who satisfied her fantasies of romance, lacking in her real life, with stories that she wrote to amuse herself. Much of Rand's fiction is sexual sublimation.

The bottom line is that love is not what one gets only if one is lucky enough to find the "perfect" soulmate. Rather, it is the result of time well invested. Your love has to be worthy of the investment. But once one has built up a life with someone, one doesn't chuck it all away because someone new, ideal on paper, shows up on one's doorstep.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 10/02, 11:50pm)




Post 16

Friday, October 3 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

Tolkien's disdain for the "Platonic Standard of love" is so obvious, it seems like Michael and John must have tried awfully hard to misunderstand his comment.
I misunderstood nothing Ted. You are trying awfully hard to get what  you want to hear out of that vague and or contradictory quote to make it suitable to your liking. It's nothing more than a rorschach test. Toliken clearly sets up a platonic standard:

"all marriages are mistakes"

Why? Because;

"if you take a little more care, you can find a better mate"




Post 17

Friday, October 3 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for adding a "new" perspective on your opinion.



Post 18

Saturday, October 4 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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Leaving aside the sarcastic tone of your post for the moment Ted, I'm only reiterating what you seemed to have completely missed from Toliken's quote. You could've found a much better quote on love than that, especially if you're going to claim a two sentence remark is better than Rand's idea of love.
(Edited by John Armaos on 10/04, 10:31am)




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