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Post 0

Friday, October 10 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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I'm interested in this part where he says the government will buy "nonvoting shares" only. 

Is that really a great thing that should be applauded by taxpayers, or is it simply a fool's preference of fascism over communism?

Ed




Post 1

Friday, October 10 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

That sounds like a whole new hybrid of collectivism. You own the means of production but have no control over it? How bizarre!



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Post 2

Friday, October 10 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Isn't one of the planks of the Communist Manifesto the nationalization of the credit/banking industries?



Post 3

Friday, October 10 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Bizarre? He has to find some way to spend $700,000,000,000.00. Do you have a better idea?



Post 4

Friday, October 10 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, bizarre... If you buy, you should get some ownership. He is volunteering to give up part of that ownership. Why? Because he knows that in free enterprise government shouldn't own businesses? Whoops, too late.

He should not just be asking for stock, but preferred stock - to be first in line for any bankruptcy proceedings if that is what happens. I want my manager to be more aggressive in his negotiating, like Buffet was.



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Post 5

Saturday, October 11 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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The libertarian assumption is that businesses are controlled by governments.  After all, governments have the guns, so they can pass laws that businesses must obey.  Fascism and communism were arrangements of that model.  What if, however, businesses control govenments?

Governments need money.  They sell bonds.  Who buys them?  When was the last time you went to your nearest Federal Reserve Bank and bought a thousand $1000 bonds?... or 700 million of them?

In return for their investment, businesses get a "vote" in government operations.  Want a space station built by two of your governments who used to be enemies?  Want someone else's oil ... need to drill for oil in a national park? Do you own a company in a different country with a horrible human rights record -- either the country or the company -- but want to import those goods into the USA on favorable terms?  Would you like the copyrights on your cartoons extended for 100 years?  
 Besides... we're not thugs, you know, we're liberal and enlightened.  We just want what's best for everyone and we want everyone to get along... and if you want to get along, you have to go along, that's only fair isn't it...
 There are two outstanding books on imperialism, classics both of them.  One was written by Lenin.  The other was written by Schumpeter.  They complement each other nicely.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 10/11, 3:41am)




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Post 6

Saturday, October 11 - 4:27amSanction this postReply
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Whoa, guys. The article doesn't say what kind of stock, but nonvoting stock is usually preferred stock. I favor that over buying distressed mortgage-backed assets, because it has less risk to taxpayers. I said so here.  Richard Posner of the University of Chicago also favors that over buying distressed mortgage-backed assets here.  To the extent the government buys preferred stock instead of distressed mortgage-backed assets, the deal is more a "workout" than a "bailout."

The article says the stock purchases "would be in addition to the main thrust of the $700 billion rescue effort, which is to buy bad mortgages and other distressed assets from financial institutions." When I first read that, it bothered me. Hopefully, it does not mean the stock purchases will be in addition to the $700 billion, but rather a part of the $700 billion.

Did you know that the early U.S. government owned bank stocks?
[Alexander] Hamilton wanted to establish a central bank modeled on the Bank of England. The government would own 20% of the stock, have two seats on the board, and the right to inspect the books at any time. But, like the Bank of England then, it would otherwise be owned by its stockholders.
To Jefferson, who may not have understood the concept of central banking, Hamilton's idea was what today might be called "a giveaway to the rich." He fought it tooth and nail, but Hamilton won the battle and the Bank of the United States was established in 1792. It was a big success and its stockholders did very well. It also provided the country with a regular money supply with its own banknotes, and a coherent, disciplined banking system.
But as the Federalists lost power and the Jeffersonians became the dominant party, the bank's charter was not renewed in 1811. The near-disaster of the War of 1812 caused President James Madison to realize the virtues of a central bank and a second bank was established in 1816.  link




Post 7

Saturday, October 11 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Mike, you scare me.

You scare me because you are not afraid to question the most comforting notions in existence -- which makes you get called a heretic. But you aren't scared of being called a heretic.

Goldman Sachs backroom
==================
[raspy male voice]:
"Alright guys, so when I get in, I'll get the public to think there's a credit crunch -- making them "okay" with a $0.7-1.0 Trillion "redistribution." The leaders in Washington will denounce you, but it's only because we need a scapegoat to get our Draconian laws passed. You'll have to take the blame for that -- even though we in Washington will know better, just like you do. But it's needed for the Noble Lie. Once we get the laws passed, we will have guild socialism whereby only the "made" companies like us, Goldman Sachs, will have both economic and political power from here on out.

It's a stealth-coup, fellas! Play your parts well!
==================

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/11, 7:40am)




Post 8

Saturday, October 11 - 8:02amSanction this postReply
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From Wikipedia:

============================
Despite the 2007 subprime mortgage crisis, Goldman was able to profit from the collapse in subprime mortgage bonds in the summer of 2007 by selling subprime mortgage-backed securities short. Two Goldman traders, Michael Swenson and Josh Birnbaum, are credited with bearing responsibility for the firm's large profits during America's sub-prime mortgage crisis.[44]

The pair, who are part of Goldman's structured products group in New York, made a profit of $4bn by "betting" on a collapse in the sub-prime market, and shorting mortgage-related securities. By summer of 2007, they persuaded colleagues to see their point of view and talked around skeptical risk management executives [45]. The firm initially avoided large subprime writedowns, and achieved a net profit due to significant losses on non-prime securitized loans being offset by gains on short mortgage positions.[46]

Goldman Sachs' newest acquisitions are to include the subprime portfolio of imploded mortgage company Popular Financial Holdings late in the third quarter of 2008. [47]

Detractors believe that Goldman wasn't quite as careful with its clients' money as it was with its own—its flagship Global Alpha hedge fund tumbled 37% in the global credit crunch.[45]
=============================

That's stellar performance in a crunch. I mean, it's almost like GS has had an insider in Washington!

Ed





Post 9

Saturday, October 11 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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The backroom scenario above needs an addendum.

The guy with the raspy voice, after telling the actors to play their parts well in the largest ever transfer of money and power in human history, said this:

=================
"Let's hope that folks don't use the common-sense principle of detective work: Follow-the-money. And, if they do, then let's be prepared to denounce them as heretics -- with as much fervor as was mustered in Salem, Massechusetts, 150 years ago! At all costs, don't let Truth and Reason win out! We have nothing to gain and everything to lose if it does!"
=================

Ed




Post 10

Saturday, October 11 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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Here's an email I just sent to "a friend":

=========================================

Chris Dodd said:
==========================
"Companies that form the foundation of our financial markets are shrinking and disappearing practically overnight. Their insatiable appetite for risk has permeated all sectors of the financial services industry, and has spread beyond our shores."
==========================

"Insatiable appetite for risk"??? Do you believe that? Do you believe that ...

(1) if laws like the Community Reinvestment Act (forces banks to give bad-credit loans) didn't exist,
(2) if government entities like Fannie and Freddie (forced taxpayers to back bad mortgages) didn't exist, and
(3) if the bad money-policy of the Fed (forced interest rates below inflation rates -- making virtually any and all new bank loans lucrative) didn't exist ...

... do you believe that if we had a fully free market, then these huge financial institutions -- with all of their fancy graphing calculators and financial advisors -- would have started to make really, really bad choices to the point of going bankrupt?

Dodd's words, to me, sound like a cover-up (and a bad one at that). A cover-up for Draconian laws where only an elite few will benefit. The trouble is, this pattern is now 4000 years old (going back to the Pharoahs):

1) public doesn't like being ruled
2) elites create a "crisis"
3) elites convince public that more rules are required to fix it (for everyone's security)
4) public begrudgingly gives up some more of its freedom to choose what is best for it
5) elites cash-in on the new money-grab and power-grab

In this case, the "made" companies -- like Goldman Sachs, where our Treasury Secretary is from -- will benefit from "regulation" and "nationalization." Here's proof (H. Paulson):
==============
"He said that the government’s stock purchases would be of nonvoting shares so that the government will not have power to run the companies."
--http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27123491/?GT1=43001
==============

So, let's get it straight. The big companies who WILL survive the crisis -- like Goldman Sachs -- get to have part of their stock bought-up with taxpayer dollars, but none of their power taken away! So, those guys -- those "made" guys -- redistribute wealth from us (through taxes) without representing our interests. That's taxation without representation -- a really, really old story by now.

Do you think that that's a con job?

Ed
=========================================

It's a little sketchy about the economic/political power dichotomy, to the point of sounding like a fascist-liberal (the very folks against which I'm arguing), but I'm still proud of it, nonetheless.

Ed



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Post 11

Saturday, October 11 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You said, "The libertarian assumption is that businesses are controlled by governments. After all, governments have the guns, so they can pass laws that businesses must obey. Fascism and communism were arrangements of that model."

Your failure to apply simple logic is atrocious. A security guard might have a gun, so does a crook, do they both "control" the people they encounter? That statement equates a security guard with a crook by throwing the concept of initiation of violence out the window. Self-defense and a mugging are now completely moral equivalents. That's what you did with 'guns,' 'laws,' 'fascism,' 'communism,' and 'libertarianism.' That's really despicable - unless the case is that you aren't bright enough to understand what you were doing.





Post 12

Saturday, October 11 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

In Mike's defense it is not like this hasn't happened before -- where "business" uses government as a weapon against competitors.

The solution is not the total annihilation of government power, just its constitutional restriction. For as long as we have a heavy hand of government meddling in the market, there will be corporate giants co-opting its method of force-initiation. Rand's book, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, is frought with examples of this.

A citizen of the U.S. doesn't have to place the moral blame on the corporation in order to understand that he is getting royally f#%$-ed by the marriage of business and government. Insofar as Mike was simply reporting on that dynamic, he's right.

Now, I take it that you take Mike to mean to defend the anarchy of competing governments -- by noting the very real marriage of business and government in this country (if you want more historical examples than are found in CUI, I have at least a half-dozen more of them). Insofar as he was doing that, he's wrong.

The reason that's wrong is because objective law is not something socially-determinable in a market -- and, therefore, used pragmatically (because "truth" is "what works ... for now"). But objective law is instead discovered by a logical analysis of the de-mystified Natural Law (including Natural, Individual Rights) of man on Earth. It's what Rand meant when she said that every is implies an ought.

In this vein, the idea of "competing governments" violates the axioms that "existence is identity" and that "consciousness is identification."

Ed




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Post 13

Saturday, October 11 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You said, "In Mike's defense it is not like this hasn't happened before -- where "business" uses government as a weapon against competitors."

Businesses can't 'use' government unless the government is ready and willing to be used - corrupt politicians are the problem. That doesn't change the fact that individual rights are being violated. But you already know that.

So I have to ask, what does your statement have to do with Michael describing a minarchist government so as to make it equivalent to fascism and communism? That is what I was criticizing!

You are much too generous in your reading of Michael's post. He did NOT mention "our" government, or "mixed economy" government... No, he specifically said, "Libertarian" government.

The rest of your post is either an argument against mixed economy government, or anarchy. I'm already opposed to mixed economies, as you know. Michael is too because he is an anarchist. So there wasn't any need to argue against mixed economies. And while an argument against anarchy is on target, you should have addressed it to him, not me, I already sing in anarchy-is-dumb choir.






Post 14

Saturday, October 11 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I agree. I guess it boils down to me respecting a notion I had of Mike being deliberately provocative in order to get folks thinking -- instead of a notion of Mike spinning this story into propoganda for anarcho-libertarianism (against minarcho-libertarianism).

In sports terms, I was playing "man-to-man" rather than playing a zone -- a Zone of Reason.

:-)

Ed




Post 15

Saturday, October 11 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
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Whoa, guys!  My mind was way far away from wherever Steve thought it was.

Let me rephrase that:

Libertarians assume that businesses are always at the mercy of every government because governments are agents of force that can coerce compliance.  However, historically -- and I believe today in the current so-called crises -- some businesses are able to get the government to do their bidding.

Steve, how many more qualifications would satisfy you?

I have been accused of an idee fixe of always trying to boost anarchy over minarchy.  I assure you that from my perspective, you cannot take any criticism  of any government except as a criticism of minarchy.  I had nothing like that in mind, at all.

I was only refering to The Occult Technology of Power. ...

To the middle classes, however. income tax makes life into an endless treadmill. Even the most productive find themselves unable to accumulate significant capital. They are
forced into the clutches of our Central Bank entourage for injections of the inflationary credit which we are privileged to create out of nothing. The self-financing wealth of the
legendary 19th Century robber barons and early Twentieth Century tycoons is no longer possible. Although your grand father owed his start to just those wide-open conditions, he
was among the first of the super-rich to advocate the erection of the tax wall that is now in place. Please note that in democratic countries eternal vigilance is required to
prevent our tax shield from being riddled with loop holes by conniving legislators, who are usually of the tax oppressed, upper-middle class origins themselves.
The Occult Technology of Power.
... among many other sources, including the two books on imperialism cited.


(Ed, thanks for being rational.)




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Post 16

Saturday, October 11 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

It isn't that I mistakenly, or irrationally (as you imply above), misunderstood you. It isn't my thinking that went awry. It is your writing.

You said, "The libertarian assumption is that businesses are controlled by governments. After all, governments have the guns, so they can pass laws that businesses must obey. Fascism and communism were arrangements of that model."

That statement is clear in mushing the use of guns by governments to defend individual rights in with fascism or communism. Michael, a minarchist government does NOT control businesses at all - it protects them against thieves, fraud, etc. I repeat, I don't believe you would see a security guard, with his gun, as the controller of the business that hires him - or lump him in with robbers who have guns.

Please, don't try to put this on me - that's not right.



Post 17

Tuesday, October 14 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Treasury’s Capital Purchase Program Details

Basics:
- preferred stock
- nonvoting except when significant for preferred shares
- 5% dividend years 1-5 then 9%
- company can "call" (redeem) after 3 years
- company can call before 3 years with proceeds from new common or preferred stock
- some warrants
- participating companies must adopt Treasury Department’s standards for executive compensation and corporate governance





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