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Tuesday, September 30 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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Rep. K.:"...which has an unfortunately privatized monetary system and created a system which includes banks having the ability to create money almost out of thin air ..."
Luke: "I personally have issues with fractional reserve banking and find Rothbard's arguments much more persuasive. But ..."




Fractional reserve banking is just another form of credit.  In the unregulated past, when the public feared that banks were over-extended, there would be "panic" perhaps limited to the pages of a couple of New York newspapers, as the so-called Panic of 1857.  Even so, some banks continued, the Chemical Bank of New York was one.  When you lend money to a bank for interest, you are taking a risk.  Apparently, some people did not think that through.  After the so-called "Panic of 1857" some banks stopped paying interest on any demand account. 

Do you have a credit card?  Even American Express, which is paid off every month, allows you a 30-day float on your purchases, i.e., one month of "creating money out of nothing" which is then "destroyed" when you pay the bill.  That is how banking works. 

As for the revolving credit cards of consumer debt, the open, free and general market allowed entities  to create new money based on expectations of the creation of new wealth in the future.  Borrowers and lenders came together at a price. 


The fear of "credit" is a result of concrete-bound epistemology: only hard money is money.  Yet, gold existed long before it was useful.   What made money useful was things (and services) to buy with it.  Given that, money could have (almost) any form -- or none.  "Money of account" (pounds/shillings/pence) was invented by bankers in the middle ages to meet several needs.
  1. The appearance of a "bullion famine" is generally accepted, but debated on the evidence.  Basically, the major mines of Germany were exhausted in the 1300s.  (However, "money of account" existed before that time by about 200 years.)  Lacking coins, merchants exchanged promises. 
  2. With hundreds of mints -- perhaps over a 1000 -- deniers and marks (pennies and ounces) were struck to all kinds of standards.  While there were popular preferences such as the English "easterling" (sterling) penny or the heller from the town of Hall, standards changed.  Sometimes places got poorer from baronial mismanagement.  Sometimes patterns of trade changed and towns shifted their standards to re-align with new partners.  All of that was settled with the arbitrary "L-s-d" measures in which 12 pence (each weighing so many nominal grains of barley or wheat) made a shilling ("mark") and 20 shillings made a pound, regardless of how many of whose coins it took to make the measures.
  3. Transporting money was dangerous and bookkeeping and receipts and contracts were safer ways to get the value of the money from one place to another. 
  4. When merchants bought and sold continuously -- Champagne had six fairs a year -- they could take on obligations that balanced, buying wool now, selling spice then, buying leather ("cordoba") here and selling dyed wool there.  Purchases and sales across time, i.e., on credit, offset each other, reducing the need for hard money except to settle the differences. 
For all of those reasons, much of trade and commerce at the "international" level (ships and caravans going long distances), has been by credit.  This is not just medieval.

Colonial America worked on the same basis.  Denied hard money by the law, American merchants bought and sold to English merchants with letters of credit.  Typically, three copies were sent, each on a different ship.  The letters themselves passed for a kind of money, being bought and sold, discounted and transferred. 

If you stop and think about it, what is a stock certificate or a commercial bond?  How could the steelmills and railroads have been built if the capital had to represent existing gold in convenient form, securely stored? 

Why are not the owners of gold mines fantastically rich, capable of buying everything they want without limit?  Because it takes effort -- money -- to get the gold out of the ground and that effort must be paid for.  Only the creation of new wealth as new goods and new services can drive that digging and refining and shipping and minting, otherwise, there would be zero profit in owning a gold mine because the gold would be worth its weight in gold, no more, no less. 

On the other side of the ledger, how would the creator of a new motor ever be paid if the motor could not be invented until the right amount of gold (how defined?) were stacked up somewhere waiting for the machine? 

By the static theory of no-credit wealth, the invention of a new motor would suck money out of the financial system, making everyone else poorer.

Yes, ultimately, it all comes down to hard money, the physicial, empirical reality of stuff that is durable, divisible and commonly accepted.  We all like it.  But it is just material, inanimate matter, unless there is an engine of creation to give it value.  That engine needs fuel.  The fuel is credit: literally "credo" I believe.  I believe that you have a good idea. 
 
Last point:  during the so-called Dark Ages, what had been the wealth of the Roman empire, was hoarded in the dungeons of warlords -- Beowulf and Siegfried.  The silver and gold was the very same stuff that powered trade on three continents in 200 AD.   The hard money was there in 600 AD.  Where was the trade? . 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 9/30, 7:51am)




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Tuesday, September 30 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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See my review, "The Ideas of E. C. Riegel" in the RoR Economics Forum here.




Post 2

Tuesday, September 30 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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I only "sort of" see how MEM answers the question of fractional reserve banking.

I have not read Rothbard's The Case Against the Fed in ten years so I cannot recall how the specifics of loans, etc.

However, the issue of producers trading promises on pieces of paper seems somehow fundamentally different from banks loaning money from thin air by authorization of the government.

In other words, without government authority and backing, banks would have to act as careful, diligent intermediaries between producers trading these promises even if no such thing as gold or other hard currency existed.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/30, 7:44am)




Post 3

Tuesday, September 30 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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LS: However, the issue of producers trading promises on pieces of paper seems somehow fundamentally different from banks loaning money from thin air by authorization of the government.
Government is a problem because it comes down to guns, not gold. 

But, really, even a government is constrained by the laws of reality.  Otherwise any nation could be as successful (ahem) as the USA, the UK, etc., just by ordering money to be created. 




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Tuesday, September 30 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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Somehow I feel like MEM and I just cannot communicate on the same wavelength today through no fault of either man.

Would someone else like to advance arguments supporting or detracting from fractional reserve banking?



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Tuesday, September 30 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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I still found what MM said to be very good information - and it represents why I believe that gold is good as a hedge and a store of value but not as a replacement for some other monetary system or a standard. 

I believe ultimately what a fractional reserve is designed to do is allow the economy to expand by taking existing assets - these can be gold or anything else designated as an asset - and allowing a bank to lend money in excess of that strict inventory so as to allow for say "the new motor" to be financed - after all, most new ideas, even if successful, don't generate profits for quite some time.  If you could only lend what you had, the economy would stagnate.

So - some mechanism has to be in place to allow for:

1 - Credit for those who are worthy and good investments
2 - Punishment for bad investments needs to be there, or we get what we have now, so failure needs to be taken into account because no one gets #1 all the time. - i.e. how to manage risk.

hence that is why it is so damned complicated




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Tuesday, September 30 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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If fractional reserve banking were prohibited, then banks could not lend out deposits made by bank customers. It could only lend based on its own money (capital). That would obviously severely limit lending. It would also likely require that depositors pay the bank to safeguard its money, rather than receive interest. If a potential depositor has money to lend, he/she would be very limited by who he/she knows and how competent he/she is at assessing credit-worthiness. I suspect most people would be happy to instead deposit their money with a sound bank and delegate assessing credit-worthiness to a bank that is more competent at it, especially if the bank will pay interest.

The problem with fractional reserve banking is, of course, loaning out too much money. Even if a bank doesn't loan out more than has been deposited plus its own money (capital), a potential problem arises when a bank makes loans for a given term, e.g. 5 years, when the source of the money is a depositor who has not relinquished control of his/her money for the same 5 years. The depositor may demand the money before 5 years and the bank can't call in the corresponding loan. It must draw on other deposits or its own capital. Of course, the more depositors there are that want to withdraw w/o waiting, the bigger the problem for the bank. This is the classic problem of runs on banks, illiquidity and eventually insolvency. This is the classic problem of borrowing short (a bank from its depositors) and lending long.

Clearly if somebody the bank loans money to defaults, it lowers the bank's capital.

Reserve requirements are designed to guard against the run on the bank problem and the default problem. Capital adequacy ratios limit the money a bank can loan out relative to its capital.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 9/30, 10:36am)




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Tuesday, September 30 - 11:40amSanction this postReply
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MJ wrote:

If fractional reserve banking were prohibited, then banks could not lend out deposits made by bank customers. It could only lend based on its own money (capital). That would obviously severely limit lending. It would also likely require that depositors pay the bank to safeguard its money, rather than receive interest. If a potential depositor has money to lend, he/she would be very limited by who he/she knows and how competent he/she is at assessing credit-worthiness. I suspect most people would be happy to instead deposit their money with a sound bank and delegate assessing credit-worthiness to a bank that is more competent at it, especially if the bank will pay interest.

I had the impression that the bank could loan other's money with their permission and that the books would reflect that.

The resulting interest earned would then be split between the bank and the depositor.

Those who only wanted a place to store their gold without risking loss to bad debts would indeed have to pay a storage fee.

There would be no "fractional reserve" because the books would reflect how much money was actually in reserve and the depositors earning interest would accept the risk of losing their money.

The best banks would adequately vet the borrowers and so garner the largest number of depositors.

As for how interest would be earned and paid back, I assumed this would tie back to the production of values and the resulting extaction of gold or other commodities from the ground as a currency.

Does anyone understand Rothbard well enough to elaborate further?



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Tuesday, September 30 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Luke wrote:
I had the impression that the bank could loan other's money with their permission and that the books would reflect that.
I have never had a bank ask my permission to loan out money I deposited there. Have you? Has anybody else reading this?

There would be no "fractional reserve" because the books would reflect how much money was actually in reserve and the depositors earning interest would accept the risk of losing their money.
I don't follow. To what situation do you refer? Are you using the common meaning of "fractional reserve", e.g. the one here?  The alternative to fractional reserves is that the fraction is 1.0.

Does anyone understand Rothbard well enough to elaborate further?
Maybe this will help. Click on Ch. 12 - Money-Warehouses and then find "fractional". 


 




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Post 9

Tuesday, September 30 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Luke, see if this helps.

Where Michael says, "Fractional reserve banking is just another form of credit," he is right, but it is only part of the story. The fractional reserve system is also a form of insurance for the member banks. They get credit, but they also get assurances of a bailout and that is part of what comes with their loans. It is a really good system, IF it weren't hooked to the government and IF it were not granted monoply status and IF it were with a currency backed by an objective value that anyone, at anytime, could exchange for (e.g., gold standard).

The first thing to talk about is money - any banking system is really just a business where you store your money or go to borrow some money. Money, ideally, would be the best of all ways to do three things: 1) denominate all things (measure worth as a dollar amount - critical for contracts - especially those involving time and distance), 2) as an exchange media (a homogenous unit that is convienent for making exchanges as opposed to trading a water buffalo), and 3) as a store-of-value (the dollar doesn't do well here when you think about inflation).

We have competing currencies right now, but only if you consider the currencies of other governments. And only government currencies find any use as "denominators" - we can choose things other than currencies to "store value" - gold, real estate, bonds, etc., but we only "denominate" in dollars or Euros or Swiss Francs, etc. And because of convienence, most transactions involve exchanges that currency is a part of.

Currencies are government monoplies established by laws that prohibit payment of debt in other than legal tender - and the legal tender act is what locks the dollar in as a monopoly. Same kind of thing with other countries and their currencies. This means that the competition between currencies is only partial and the monoplies keep the competion from being very efficient in altering the behavior of those who control those currencies. The fact is that the people in control of the currency - for each country - are answering to political masters rather than a marketplace where their currency is competing with others by consumers.

Because they are not tied to an intrinsic value - as they would be if you could exchange a note for a fixed, unchanging amount of gold - a currency is only a mechanism for denomination and exchange, it only has value in the ability to convert it to one's choice of items, items with intrinsic value (the word intrinsic here isn't meant metaphysically, but economically). All this really means is that there exists a need to limit the printing of money by tying it to something like gold - with a fixed exchange rate. This lets people express their confidence in the money by using it and by storing value with it and not exchanging it into gold, and if they become worried, they can make a run on the money - getting the gold.

If I opened up my own little bank, printed a currency, and set a ratio of exchange (each SteveNote equals 1/100th of an ounce of .99 pure gold), people could start using the currency. This would require that the legal tender act be repealed or much modified. And you can't open a bank without a charter provided by the state, so that would need to be modified as well. But assume those laws had all been changed. To be successful people would need to trust in The Bank of Steve. As time went on I could open more branches. Then I could begin to print more SteveNotes than I had gold, but always using sound, statistical approaches to ensure that I would be able to meet all but the very worst runs on my currency. I could structure the arrangement with my branches so that we resembled the fractional reserve system. They deposit a certain amount of gold with my central bank and I send them SteveNotes that total more than their deposit. Of course, it might take a very, very long time before a SteveNote found acceptance widely, but I think you can imagine the exact same scheme being carried out by American Express or CitiBank working much quicker.

Your observations of a good system being one where you had to pay the bank to store your value, whereas if you allowed them to use it for loans, you would split the interest from the borrower is accurate. It means less profit for the individuals, much, much less for the banks, and less expansive energy for the economy, but it eliminates or severely minimizes recessions, melt-downs, popping bubbles, credit crisis, etc. And the biggest benefit is that human ingenuity and productivity gradually increase purchasing power and thereby reward savers and investors with dollars that buy more later instead of less.



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Tuesday, September 30 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Merlin, I should have clarified that Post 7 referred to a fictional 100% reserve bank in the style of Rothbard.

Steve, thanks for the long and thoughtful post.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/30, 1:04pm)




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Tuesday, September 30 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Merlin, I should have clarified that Post 7 referred to a fictional 100% reserve bank in the style of Rothbard.
Luke, I still don't know what that means. My guesses are (1) a bank that does not lend using a depositor's money and or (2) a bank that does not issue gold receipts for more than the amount of gold equal to its capital plus deposits from customers.




Post 12

Tuesday, September 30 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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MJ wrote:

(2) a bank that does not issue gold receipts for more than the amount of gold equal to its capital plus deposits from customers.

I meant that with the caveat that depositors' funds loaned to others would essentially be "locked" from depositors' access until those loans matured in the form of Certificates of Deposit (CDs), etc.

So a depositor could deposit gold for storage at no risk for a fee or he could deposit gold for loan at risk and not have immediate access to it but could expect interest (or loss) eventually.



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Tuesday, September 30 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Wolfer wrote: "Currencies are government monoplies established by laws that prohibit payment of debt in other than legal tender - and the legal tender act is what locks the dollar in as a monopoly."

Steve that was a really nice essay.  One of the things I hate about the online dialectic is that it is too easy to focus on one little error in an otherwise insightful piece of work.  Sorry....

 

Legal Tender Status

Question I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
Answer The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy


http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml
In short, there is no such prohibition, requirement or monopoly as claimed above. 




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Tuesday, September 30 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The law was called the Legal Tender Act. It was upheld by the Supreme Court in the late 1800's - The later act that you refer to - the Coinage Act of 1965 - is still called the "legal tender act."

It is a monopoly, but not as severe as myth has it. The monopoly that has been established isn't that people must accept our currency as payment when the verbal or written contract specifies other, but it is the only currency that has standing in our courts as valid payment of debt when conflict arises. And, by charter, banks pay depositors with legal tender and receive legal tender from the Fed.

Legal tender has been challenged in different ways, like where a man who went through a bad divorce was paying his alimony in pennies immersed in a keg of molasses. The court decided that wasn't legal tender and made him pay in more reasonable denominations (and no molasses). As you can imagine, he would have had problems if he had tried to pay the alimony in Albanian Lek.



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Wednesday, October 1 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Steve - your post 9 was excellent and made me have a sense of understanding how a "gold standard" could work without making gold more valuable than it needs to be.



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Wednesday, October 1 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Kurt



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