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Post 0

Wednesday, August 20 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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The squeak is deafening here.  ;)




Post 1

Wednesday, August 20 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
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See.  Ignorance is not always bliss.



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Post 2

Wednesday, August 20 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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What's the dilemna? they guilty as charged...



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Post 3

Wednesday, August 20 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Initially I'll lean towards "neglect is not a crime". But I'd think that serious cases of neglect such as this would make neglectful parent loose their lawful claim of guardianship over their children, that other qualified parents could adopt irrelevant the neglectful parent's wishes.

Anyone else want to take a stab at what should be done?



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Post 4

Wednesday, August 20 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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That a pair of Christians chose to allow their child to die rather than seek modern medical treatment is not shocking to me. What I find shocking is a state that would write prayer into law.

This couple deserves to be punished as do the members of Wisconsins legislative assemblies.



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Post 5

Wednesday, August 20 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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While the relationship is difficult to define, parenthood does not mean "ownership."

  A bad idea is a bad idea, regardless of the reasons for it's adoption.  Parents can hold bad ideas, but no relationship can give one the right to foist the consequences of that idea onto another, no matter how intimate the relationship.  Life should win, it's supposed to win.  

This was an unspeakable, disgusting, humiliating-to-the-human-race, waste of life.  I just want to punch the smile off that bitch's stupid fucking face.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 8/20, 5:16pm)




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Post 6

Wednesday, August 20 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Why do they have attorneys? Why not just pray?

Oh, praying is good enough for their daughter, but not enough when THEIR stupid asses are on the line.

They shouldn’t worry. While they rot in prison, I’ll be praying for them.




Post 7

Wednesday, August 20 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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Maybe I should have disclaimed that I think what they've done is despicable and amazingly stupid. I'm debating whether a punishing the parents is best, and what the punishment should be if it is best. Do we need to create laws and use police force to make parents provide some level of health for their children? Clearly this is a slippery slope. Is it a waste of tax money and everyone's time?

I understand how such a thing could happen in a strongly religious family. They probably seriously believe that prayer should work if anything could, or that faith that "God will save" is the most important thing (not medical science). Not that this is reasonable, again it is despicable and incredibly stupid.



Post 8

Wednesday, August 20 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Freethought Day celebrates the end of supernaturalism as admissible in court.

"Over 300 years ago, on October 12, 1692, Governor William Phipps of the Colony of Massachusetts made a decision that brought to an end the horrendous Salem Witch trials."

"A Christian, nevertheless he declared that spectral evidence (supernaturalism) would no longer be admissible in court, and so the trials, due to lack of appropriate evidence, came to an end. The governor's decision was a distinct departure from the general community’s extant thinking and a giant step on the path toward the principle of legal neutrality that would, when the United States incorporated into its brand new Constitution a Bill of Rights, assure each U.S. citizen the freedom to follow his/her conscience regarding matters of ultimate belief."

One can infer from this decision that "conscience" must nonetheless adhere to naturalism when called into court.

While I sympathize with Ed's struggle, I have found the need for adherence to naturalism and reason in legal matters inescapable.



Post 9

Wednesday, August 20 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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I understand how such a thing could happen in a strongly religious family.

You might, Dean, but I sure don't.   In fact, I'm willing to go so far as to say that issuing any level of "understanding" is equal to issuing a level of "acceptability."  It's unacceptable on every level.

 They probably seriously believe that prayer should work if anything could, or that faith that "God will save" is the most important thing (not medical science).

I'm trying to understand on what level this is acceptable in the United Fucking States of America.  I am absolutely unwilling to be put in any color of insane clown shoes in order to "understand."   Sympathizers are free to wear them, but I won't.

The poorest of the poor, mud hole, earth, wind and fire worshiping resident in Africa will dredge mile upon dusty mile to seek "modern" medical attention for their dying offspring.

Imprisonment is inappropriate? Fine. Send them to the deserts of Africa to "pray it off."  They have no business living in the modern world, anyway.   Tax dollars shouldn't be wasted on their "modern" trial.




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Post 10

Wednesday, August 20 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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There have been a small number of cases like this over the years where parents do not obtain or refuse treatment for their child based upon beliefs that they hold and the child ends up suffering or dying as a result. Is this neglect or child abuse? I argue no. There is no indication of mal-intent, and the parents are not neglecting their child. On the contrary, they are actively attempting to help their child by curing the illness through prayer.

Do we know better. Sure we do. Because we judge ourselves to be rational in our knowledge and use of western medicine and judge these parents to be irrational in their belief in the power of faith. We think that they are irrational because they can not help but be exposed to the facts regarding the efficacy of medicine which permeate our culture, and yet they choose to willfully deny or ignore those facts and cling to their religion. We see that the consequences of holding those beliefs is a matter of life and death, and here is a case where it results in death.

On the other hand, I can imagine that these folks, along with so many others I have met, think something along the line that God's miracle is omni-present inside us as well as manifest in the surrounding world, and that it is we, the worshipers of reason and deniers of faith, who are guilty of willfully blinding ourselves to the truth. They may think that we have no choice but to avail ourselves of western medicine because our sin of cutting ourself off from direct contact with God means that we no longer have access to his healing comfort and power. Possibly they believe that through prayer, they not only work to save their lives, but also, and more importantly, actively work to save their immortal souls which will spend eternity in either heaven or hell, making our time here on earth all but inconsequential. I also suspect that they recognize that not everyone who prays has their life saved, but so too do people die despite the best efforts of medicine. These people may be part of a religious community where everyone else in that community believes the same things and there may be authority figures in that community whom they trust and look up to who have been telling them these things for years. Maybe they are doing what they honestly believe is the absolutely best thing for their child and are really pissed off that others are interfering in what they think should be a personal decision.

I'm not saying anything insightful or profound here. The purpose of this exercise is to hopefully make the point that we don't all view the world the same way. The difference between Objectivists firmly committed to reason and those committed to faith is a wide gulf and throws those competing commitments into sharper relief than some other differences, but if you are going to propose to dictate the requirement that all parents must avail themselves of medical treatment for their sick children, then how and where do you propose to draw the line? In fact, regardless of what you might say, the line has long been crossed. For example, you don't have the right to decide what sort of education your children should have. (See the current story unfolding in California regarding home schooling.) Do you think that should be your decision or the States? You can't decide what level of safety to provide for your children. The State decides what sort of seat they must use in the car, its placement, orientation and through what age. They decide that your kids must wear a bike helmet. All good ideas? Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe the State should decide exactly what your kids can eat. (They're working on that right now!) Maybe they should decide what sports they can and cannot play? It might be in your child's best interest for them to play a musical instrument. Should the decision to give them music lessons be left up to the parent who might make the wrong choice and retard their development, robbing them if their full potential? Sports or music? None, one or both? Can we know we are making the correct decision? Maybe the State could make a better choice, or at least relieve us from the responsibility of having to decide ourselves.

And once we get parenting under control - all in the name of protecting the innocents who are not fully developed and capable of making rational choices for themselves - why stop there. If a bike helmet is good for a kid, why not require one for you too. and if you choose to not wear a seatbelt while driving, you are clearly impaired in you judgment, so let's not leave it up to you, let's pass a law and force you to wear one. You'll thank me later. In fact, this whole area of medical care is just too important to leave any part of it in your hands, so let's have the State take over the whole thing and administer it to us all. Then it won't just be parents who are relieved from making a wrong decision. We will all be in the same boat and, by definition, all medical decisions will then be fair and correct ones. I see a day when all children happily bounce their balls in unison on the sidewalk in front of their houses. (A literary reference in case you are wondering.)

If you think you know what is best for this little girl and her parents, and you think we should put their feet to the fire for making a decision that you believe to have been wrong, then please consider where that sort of thinking will inevitably lead. Yes, it is a tragedy that this girl died from a preventable illness and I feel very sorry for her bad luck to have been born to these particular parents. But if you want to live in a society based upon maximum liberty which allows for individual differences in how people conduct their lives, then you must also be willing to accept that those that I affectionately refer to as STUPID SHITS (see here) are going to make some boneheaded decisions and they will occasionally have disastrous results. The price of freedom includes the ability to fail. I'm sure that these parents are devastated by the loss of their daughter. They are paying the price for their mistake. And any rational person seeing this tragedy unfold in the news can learn the lesson here. There is nothing to be accomplished by attempting to prosecute these sad people. Rather than restricting the freedom to think in this area, let's put our efforts into regaining control over the vast tracts of our lives that have been usurped over time by the government.

Regards,
--
Jeff



Post 11

Wednesday, August 20 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
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Haha, my exact thoughts Jeff! : )

Teresa, understanding how a process works does not require that you like the process. I question whether you are willing to try to be rational on this subject, that your emotions are out of check.

Jon, sorry for what I originally said, I was out of line.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 8/21, 5:38am)




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Post 12

Wednesday, August 20 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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OK Dean.



(Edited by Jon Letendre on 8/21, 6:44am)




Post 13

Wednesday, August 20 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Certainly this is no “big, hairy moral dilemma.”

In principle it is debatable politically. But you don’t really question it ethically, do you?

Jeff/Dean excuses that some adults really do sincerely believe in the tooth fairy aside, you are prepared to morally judge an adult who defaults that grossly on exercising their mind, are you not?

A person could convince himself that jumping off a cliff is the way to salvation—they can genuinely believe it—but you are not confused as to how to judge that person, right?





Post 14

Wednesday, August 20 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

As is relevant to so many other discussions in this forum, there is a difference between moral and legal judgment. I understand that difference, and you must read my posts with that understanding as well if you wish to comprehend what I am saying.

Regards,
--
Jeff



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Post 15

Wednesday, August 20 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

I understand the moral/legal judgment difference. Something can be grossly immoral but that doesn’t mean it should be a crime. (I did write that it’s debatable politically, meaning legally.)

What I am asking Ed, and I will ask you too, is this: Do you have anything to say, moral-judgment-wise about people who allow themselves to come to the point where they believe in fairies and this results in other people dying?


You wrote: “There is no indication of mal-intent, and the parents are not neglecting their child. On the contrary, they are actively attempting to help their child by curing the illness through prayer.

"Do we know better. Sure we do. Because we judge ourselves to be rational in our knowledge and use of western medicine and judge these parents to be irrational in their belief in the power of faith. We think that they are irrational because they can not help but be exposed to the facts regarding the efficacy of medicine which permeate our culture, and yet they choose to willfully deny or ignore those facts and cling to their religion.”


It sounds like you are saying they have their angle and we rational ones have ours, full-stop.

But when they “willfully deny or ignore those facts and cling to their religion” they are EVADING, no? Immoral, no?


Ed wrote that this looks to him like a “big, hairy moral dilemma.”

Is that how it looks to you, too?

It’s not a hard question and my educated guess is no for both of you, but I’ve learned not to guess on Objectivist boards, and both of you have written in such a way that I can’t be sure, so I’m asking.




(Edited by Jon Letendre on 8/20, 9:37pm)




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Post 16

Wednesday, August 20 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with you that there is no big moral dilemma here. As I tried to indicate in the excerpt that you quoted, I'm in full agreement that these people are evading reality big time and paying for that dearly. And their poor daughter payed the ultimate price as well. My moral judgment of them is that they, along with a large part of humanity, are operating at a level of conscious awareness that is only slightly above that of animals, far far below their potential. This failure to honor their own nature is the ultimate sin and they don't warrant any more of my time or attention than I would devote to any other wild beast. If they try to attack me I swat them down. Otherwise, I'm happy to leave them to fight it out or survive among themselves as best they can.

And that last sentiment frames a tangential issue that was a part of my previous post. One thing that amazes me on this forum is just how worked up people can get over the actions of anonymous people when their acts do not appear to have any direct or indirect effect upon their lives. I'm still somewhat shocked to realize how much of our culture is focused on the lives, thoughts and actions of others. From the proliferation of the paparazzi and the voyeuristic magazines at the checkout line to the reality television shows, to the attention paid to personal blogs, social networks, YouTube videos, and so on, the culture seems to be obsessed with a need to know the intimate details of everyone around them. This obsession corresponds with a massive rise in the nanny state that thinks it has the right as well as the responsibility to manage even the most minute aspects of our lives. Whatever the cause and effect relationship, these two phenomenon are closely interconnected.

My life is complicated and interesting enough to occupy my attention, which is the way I believe it should be for everyone. It's fine to interact with other people in ways that are mutually beneficial, but any involvement beyond that is a waste of human potential that could and should be directed at furthering one's own life in the pursuit of happiness. Maybe I'm just an odd duck, but I can look at these sad sacks and see what they have done, feel a small tinge of anonymous regret for their daughter whom I don't know and never will, decide that their story is a morality play demonstrating the consequences of reason vs. faith in action - and then I move on. What I will not do is invest any moral outrage or emotional indignation over them. For me, that would be tantamount to letting their actions have some impact and control over my life. There is nothing about these people or their lives that can contribute to mine, so I choose to ignore them and spend that energy elsewhere.

If everyone would focus more on their own lives and leave others to fend for themselves, the world might have the same amount of problems, failures, and atrocities, but I'm convinced that the net happiness of all individuals would rise considerably along with an increase in personal productivity. Why, I've got a chill running down my spine. Let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya! :-)

Regards,
--
Jeff



Post 17

Wednesday, August 20 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Of course I morally judge these parents (it's silly for you to ask)!

And yes, they are clearly our moral inferiors. My dilemma is the one that Jeff illuminated -- what in the heck should we do with people who are clearly our moral inferiors? Statistically, indigenous American tribes were morally inferior, too. In fact, ANY tribe with a Witch-Doctor who performed miracle cures is almost as guilty as these parents are. Ever hear of Mingee? It's when a Witch-Doctor decides that a newborn should be left in the jungle to die (after first "consulting the spirits," of course!). Religion has caused more early deaths than diabetes (the disease the young child in the news article died of), for "God" sakes!!!

Does that mean that we should put the lost souls into cages, or beat them or put them "on the rack" -- until they profess their allegiance to Reason?

I realize that a life was lost and when lives are lost for no good reason then there is a case for murder via neglect. That's a principle for judging others. But, under that principle, the heads of the FDA should have been electrocuted to death -- because the FDA forestalled, for decades, the allowing of folks to market aspirin for prevention of second heart attacks (and millions of American lives were lost for no good reason).

How can we "fry" these parents while letting the heads of the FDA "walk"? Do you see how applying this principle without contradiction would make for a moral dilemma?

Ed




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Post 18

Thursday, August 21 - 12:05amSanction this postReply
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And thank you for your thoughtful reply, Jeff.

While I agree with you about no sense in wasting a lot of angst about these seemingly once-a-day crazy news stories, I’m not seeing how this sensible advice informs what the right answer is. If you found yourself on the jury, would it be productive to note that the case is sad but ultimately meaningless to your life and happiness? True, but what has that got to do with it?

For myself, I would find them guilty (of something, if not, and probably not, murder.) They are responsible for executing the child’s right to life and pursuit of happiness and they were neglectful. I think I could render that decision without “letting their actions have some impact and control over my life.”

I don’t at all see how reaching that verdict invites the government to tell us what to eat or any of the other stuff you listed. They didn’t feed her one too many Twinkies, they ignored her having trouble breathing.

If some parents tossed their child off a cliff and defended themselves saying they wanted their sweet one to be with God as soon as possible, I would find them guilty of murder. I’ll take your slippery-slope warnings under advisement, but here too, I’m not seeing how a guilty verdict invites laws telling us what to eat.

Now I am thinking about your advice! I won’t be offended if you don’t respond if you won’t when I don’t, if you know what I mean.





Post 19

Thursday, August 21 - 12:07amSanction this postReply
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Sorry Ed, but I don’t get it.

The parents can’t be found neglectful until some FDA officials go to jail first?





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