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Post 100

Sunday, August 17 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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Ever wonder why I would feel the need to say weird things like the context demands a broad generalization or why I would feel the need to state and restate what this thread is about? Well, here's why:

(1) Phil Osborn makes the accusation of injustice toward indigenous American tribes by the colonists in general, including the Founding Fathers in particular -- which rests on a COLLECTIVIST premise.

(2) I adopt his collectivist premise in order to argue the true point that colonists (as a collective) respected individual rights moreso than indigenous American tribes did (as a collective).

(3) High-brow intellectuals -- drunk with their own high-mindedness (or a flat-out, self-righteous sense of superiority) -- jump into this thread to point out, again and again, the bucket-load of thinking mistakes associated with "my" collectivist line of reasoning.

(4) My actual point gets drowned-out by the flurry of "teaching moments" from people who can clearly see the folly of "my" collectivism.

(5) Phil's original, COLLECTIVIST premise remains unchallenged (because of the high-brow blowback directed at me for attempting to beat him in his own backyard).

That's suboptimal.

Ed



Post 101

Sunday, August 17 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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Ed, if that's what you're up to... ok.

But you could have made that clear, oh... maybe a week and 100 posts ago. I mean, I had no idea, not even an inkling, that that was your object. Or did I miss where you made that clear earlier?

(Edited by Jonathan Fauth on 8/17, 6:18pm)




Post 102

Sunday, August 17 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan,

I, myself, didn't fully realize what the heck was going on -- though I knew something was amiss (which is why I felt compelled to write and rewrite what I could about what the thread was about). In retrospect, I think I was at least 3/4's clear after the first challenge by Steve -- by making it clear that this thread was a direct response to Phil Osborn throwing his baggage all over the RoR lawn like he did.

The reason I can't point the finger at any one of my critics here is that I, myself, couldn't put my feelings that something was amiss in clear enough terms for myself. I'm as guilty as the rest of us for merely hacking at the branches of evil -- rather than the root [thanks, Jeff! (if the quote was in response to the dynamics in this thread)].

Ed




Post 103

Monday, August 18 - 4:02amSanction this postReply
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ET:"My actual point gets drowned-out by the flurry of "teaching moments" from people who can clearly see the folly of "my" collectivism."
Apparently, what you see depends on where you stand.  Ed, you only presented the Objectivist party line on manifest destiny.  You displayed no special knowledge of native cultures.  You could have turned this discussion on any point of your choosing -- and you still can ... as any poster can.

Did you ever read my post about Hiawatha and the invention of wampum?
See here and then scroll down to Number 5.
http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/ObjectivismQ&A/0083.shtml






 




Post 104

Monday, August 18 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Mike,

You say I displayed no special knowledge of native cultures but, like I said, I didn't think that this context -- this context set up by Phil Osborn -- required any special knowledge.

A collectivist premise about one race doing injustice to dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of tribes of other people is not something that can be successfully defended with instances of special knowledge. Instead, what is required for general premises is general knowledge. If you make a broad generalization like Phil did, then you are left at the mercy of any critic -- those with special knowledge, and even those with just general knowledge.

Also, I read about the bead-money but, get this: Hiawatha had been a cannibal and some of the main uses of that bead-money were to fund the violation of rights:

"After 1600, wampum spread rapidly for use as blood money, ransom, and ..."

If you were trying to make the point that having a form of money around made native cultures somewhere near as civilized or as respecting of individual rights as colonists then I'm not buying what you're selling (pun intended).

Ed



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Post 105

Monday, August 18 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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Blood money and ransom are perfectly good English concepts. The fact that kidnapping is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that the state will not stoop to paying randsom, at least to jihadists. OJ Simpson got away with murder - but he has been judged liable to pay blood money. The fact that money is used by criminals too does not make money a criminal tool - unless, perhaps, you advocate doing away with paper and coin so that the government may track all financial transactions electronically.

The claim that Osbourn forced anyone into making a collectivist argument is false and ingenuous. The claim was made that Indians have no property rights because their society doesn't have the underlying institutions - and hence there wasw nothing wrong with those who "have" property rights taking Indian land. This was shown to be false - almost all tribes had a concept and an institution of property - most had agriculture, all had fishing and hunting roights. This was shown to be irrelevant. Individuals have the moral right to property so long as they do not forfeit it by crime or lose it in offensive war. Finally, in those circumstances where property was seized from Indians by force of law it was done both in contradiction to the guarantees of the Constitution, and it was done by forcibly treating the indians collectively by "treaty" (where the Indians usually had no authorized party to negotiate to treaties - a chief was seized and made to sign a to him meaningless piece of paper) and Act of Congress.

Congress has no right to create a collective entity in order to strip that entity of its property - at best, Congress could have admiktted Indian nations as States. This is the catch. Indian nations should have been admitted as states, with the provision that all residents, native and settler, would have equal rights before the law. This was always a possibility, but never became an actuality. Indians were treated both as subject and as foreign. They were treated as subhuman, or at leaast inferior to Europeans and Christians. The powers in the East wanted no knowledve of the facts on the ground. Powers in the west were motivated by greed and racism to use every possible excuse to seize Indian land and to drivew off Indian residents. There were certainly criminal actions by Indian braves. Certain tribes were indeed warlike, and by fighting Americans during war or by attacking settlers and tribes they forfeited their rights. But American policy - which is what we are concerned with here - was never one to respect the individual rights of Indians and to bring peaceful tribes into the Union as equals. (This happened only in Hawaii, and only in part, after the sugar plantations used force to overthrow the native monarchy.) There is no excuse for the Indians being treated as rightless individuals. there is no excuse for them being made into collective entities by fiat from Washington DC. There is no excuse for them being treated simulataneously as subject peoples, hence punishable by law, yet also as foreign peoples, without recourse to law themselves. No matter what their own naivete in regards to the leval systems of the Europeans, when the Europeans used those systems it was never to protect the real rights of individuals, it was always in order to abrogate those rights.



Post 106

Monday, August 18 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

The claim that Osbourn forced anyone into making a collectivist argument is false ...



You don't seem to get it. I didn't get it at first, but when I did, I posted post 100. In post 100, I admitted that I personally adopted (not got forced, but adopted) Phil's already-collectivist premise in order to try to beat him on his own philosophical turf (see item # 2). So why can't you just say to me:

"Do you see what you get for that, Ed (adopting the premises of collectivists)? You should have just denied acceptance of the collectivist premise without having to marshal an argument against it! That's what John Galt would have done, you know. He wouldn't let a collectivism-based argument even get through the gates in the first place."[?]

The answer? Because you can be a real jerk sometimes.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/18, 8:03pm)




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Post 107

Tuesday, August 19 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

But American policy - which is what we are concerned with here - was never one to respect the individual rights of Indians and to bring peaceful tribes into the Union as equals. (This happened only in Hawaii, and only in part, after the sugar plantations used force to overthrow the native monarchy.) There is no excuse for the Indians being treated as rightless individuals. there is no excuse for them being made into collective entities by fiat from Washington DC.
If I accept your terms then I make the same mistake twice. You're making more than a couple of bold, broad and black-and-white historical generalizations. For instance, you say Indians have been "made into" collective entities. Well then, why don't individual Indians secede from their tribes in order to live by "our" law? Or don't individuals count here (because of some multiculturalist "greater good" such as "tradition" or "tribal solidarity")?

Ed
[See? I can be a jerk, too, Ted]





Post 108

Tuesday, August 19 - 11:55pmSanction this postReply
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Not all Indians. Some indians have been victimized. To say that "Indians have been victimized" is as clear and legitimate as saying that "women have been raped," (true, and not so ambiguous that you can't figure it out) and I am sure that my usage did not confuse you.

The problem with your suggestion of secession is that it is not possible, without accepting grerat injustice, by living Indians. I have discussed this matter with living Indians. Their land is collectivised by law. Again, I refer you to the concretes. They can simply leave the reservation and their claim to the land. Many do this. But reservation administrators and Washington conspire to prevent privatization of current claims, worth sometimes millions per individual. What any of this has to do with your original (I presume now abandonned - please confirm) stand that Indians never had property rights because they were "savages" I do not see.

As to jerk, who said that? You idiot. ;-p



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