About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Monday, September 1 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
I recently read twice through this outstanding little book:
Crimes Against Logic: Exposing the Bogus Arguments of Politicians, Priests, Journalists, and Other Serial Offenders by Jamie Whyte.  My review will follow in a few days.  For now, the present topic is a crime against logic because all it does is beg the question.

As Jamie Whyte points out, those who are "intolerant" do not view others as having made some unfortunate faux pas like serving red wine with fish.  They consider those who disagree with them to be basically, fundamentally, irrevocably wrong in a way that cannot be reconciled via compromise

If you believe that abortion is the same as the murder of an adult, there is no middle ground.  If you believe that pornography leads to rape, there is no middle ground.  If you accept the literal truth of the Bible which commands that we not suffer a witch to live, there is no middle ground between killing a witch and not killing a witch.  (That such fanatics wear cotton-polyester blends in defiance of the Bible is another matter entirely.) 

I point out that only the force of arms -- us against them -- keeps these fanatics from doing more damage than they do.  I point to the two Topics I created on the ELF and the Conservative Right as terrorist networks.  Does Prof. Machan propose that by asking ALF/ELF to be "tolerant" of experimentation on animals or the use of fur in clothing that we will find some happy middle ground between doing that and not doing that?

The plea for tolerance makes sense only to those who are tolerant in the first place.

That raises another question, entirely.  Such toleration may be contrary to the intent of Objectivism.  While libertarian politics allows that we ignore those who drink or smoke or screw in ways that we ourselves might not, Objectivism per se is very specific about what can or cannot be smoked, drunk or screwed by a rational person in pursuit of her own highest goals according to the only objective standard of judgement, her life as human qua human.

Rather than exorting the audience to be tolerant of mystics, altruists and collectivists, an Objectivist would remind us that there is no compromise with evil -- and that is what we are talking about.  Ayn Rand pointed out that in any such conflict the more consistent side will win and the intolerant advocates of mysticism, altruism, and collectivism are, indeed, more consistent than the tone of the title essay in this topic would indicate its author to be.




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Monday, September 1 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
TM: " That’s not religious freedom but religions oppression (unless it is an adult who voluntarily submits to such a sacrifice). "
Actually, no adult can voluntarily submit to being sacrificed.  No adult can enter into a contract that calls for assault or bodily harm.   The law does not permit that any more that the law allows people to sell themselves into slavery.  Perhaps these things should be allowed.  (I think not.)  Sports like football and boxing are nominally assaultive, but have clearly proscribed limits and referees to enforce them.  If Prof. Machan wants to advocate for this, then he must address the relevant court cases and show why they are flawed.  In the mean time, be aware that you do not have the freedom to agree to be sacrificed. 
(An Objectivist might be able to find 1085 pages that explain why you specifically should not agree to such a compact, drawing the line so far from blood sacrifice as to decline Thanksgiving Dinner with your Mom.)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 9/01, 1:56pm)




Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Monday, September 1 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Michael,

You are just pot-stirring again. And, unfortunately, doing so in way that makes no sense at all!

Dr. Machan's article was about distinguishing between things that should be legal and those that shouldn't. His use of the word "tolerate," as in "allow others to do," was explicitly differentiated from "acceptance."

The whole point was that individual rights should govern the creation of laws, not this or that moral code.

He is stating that respect for private property benefits the religious as well as those who are not - do you disagree?

He is stating that we should NOT make laws against everything we find morally repugnant - do you disagree?

He states that any group, religious or otherwise, that advocates an action that would violate rights should not be allowed to take that action - do you disagree?

He states that religions should not be able to enforce their views on the culture by law - do you disagree?

The entire thrust of his article was to argue in favor of a culture where people are free to follow their own beliefs so long as they did not violate the rights of another. And that, coincidentally, it benefits the religious as well. I can not for the life of me understand why you choose to ignore the entire article and write a criticism that doesn't even apply to it.

And regarding your last post, notice that Dr. Machan says "... in a free society..." an adult could volunteer to be a sacrifice. I agree, and the only way to object to that is to say that the person does not own their own life - is that your position?



Post 3

Monday, September 1 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Steve, I must say I have stopped trying to make sense of Michael's comments on my pieces. I have no idea what he is talking about, what he is after, nada.  So I just glance at them and shake my head.



Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Monday, September 1 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

Michael's first post here only gets of the ground if you conflate conflicting beliefs and forcible conflict. Tibor's article made it clear that the initiation of force was out of bounds. He did not argue for the goodness of religion, but for the goodness of freedom for those who would freely practice their religions. Note that since freedom is action without coercion, one cannot, by definition, engage in the initiation of force as part of religious freedom. There is no "freedom" to wage jihad. Tolerance requires nothing more than a mutual restraint from the initiation of force. Objectivism does advocate this kind of tolerance under all circumstances. Since I have no right to demand that you be rational, you do me no harm by being religious. To recognize your right to practice your religion freely is not a compromise with evil. To think so is to fail to understand Rand at all.




Post to this thread
User ID Password reminder or create a free account.