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Post 0

Monday, January 28 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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Good overview, Joe.

I especially like that part about the necessary conceptual distinction of "value" from "desire." [Eat your heart out, Bill!] I was just re-reading my booklet: "On Ayn Rand" and I paused when reading Allan Gotthelf's words about value attainment not necessarily being about the satisfaction of one's conscious desires. The brute satisfaction of conscious desire being necessarily hedonistic and consequently subjective.

Rand railed about that sort of thing.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/28, 5:44pm)




Post 1

Monday, January 28 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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Here's some "Rand" on that:

The intrinsic theory holds that the good resides in some sort of reality, independent of man's consciousness; the subjectivist theory holds that the good resides in man's consciousness ...
Or, the good (i.e., the valuable) doesn't reside in man's conscious desires, and
A psychological subjectivist is unable fully to identify his values or to prove their objective validity, but he may be profoundly consistent and loyal to them in practice (though with terrible psycho-epistemological difficulty).
Or, consistently and loyally chasing after conscious desires is not necessarily moral, and
... one knows that an attempt to achieve the good by physical force is a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to recognize the good, i.e., his capacity to value.
Or, valuing (for man) is a mental capacity -- rather than a physical act, and
Values cannot exist (cannot be valued) outside the full context of a man's life, needs, goals, and knowledge.
Or, you can't value outside of a full context, and
Since values are determined by the nature of reality, it is reality that serves as men's ultimate arbiter: if a man's judgment is right, the rewards are his; if it is wrong, he is his only victim.
Or, genuine human values require accurate mental judgment, and
Today, as in the past, most philosophers agree that the ultimate standard of ethics is whim (they call it "arbitrary postulate" or "subjective choice" or "emotional commitment")— ...
Or, emotional commitments and personal choices aren't necessarily (human) values, and
The subjectivist theory holds that the good bears no relation to the facts of reality, that it is the product of a man's consciousness, created by his feelings, desires, "intuitions," or whims, and that it is merely an "arbitrary postulate" or an "emotional commitment."
Or, values aren't the product of man's consciousness, and aren't created by feelings, or desires, or emotional commitments, and
Ethical subjectivism, which holds that a desire or a whim is an irreducible moral primary, that every man is entitled to any desire he might feel like asserting, ...
Or, desires aren't primary to morality, and
The subjectivist theory of ethics is, strictly speaking, not a theory, but a negation of ethics. And more: it is a negation of reality, a negation not merely of man's existence, but of all existence. Only the concept of a fluid, plastic, indeterminate, Heraclitean universe could permit anyone to think or to preach that man needs no objective principles of action—that reality gives him a blank check on values ...
Or, reality doesn't give blank checks on personal values, subjective valuing being a negation of the field of ethics, itself.

Excerpts from:
http://aynrandlexicon.com
[under: "Objective Theory of Values", "Subjectivism (Psychological)", "Subjectivism (Ethical)", and possibly one other search term, I forget]

Ed




Post 2

Monday, January 28 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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Joe wrote,
Ethics is fundamentally about choosing between possible goals/values. Ethics isn't concerned primarily with how to accomplish a particular value, such as how to cook a nice meal. It's concerned with choosing between cooking that nice meal and every other action you could be taking. Ethics is all about choice. And that means choosing between possible values.
I agree that ethics isn't concerned primarily about how to accomplish a subsidiary value, such as cooking a nice meal. But I wouldn't say that it isn't concerned primarily with how to accomplish a particular value, using "particular value" in the broadest sense of the term. If one's ultimate value is one's own happiness, and it is, then the primary concern of ethics is how to achieve that particular value. In this respect, ethics is simply a means to an end. Since one's own happiness is one's highest moral purpose, one ought to choose whatever means are necessary to achieve it.
When you evaluate something as positive, one kind of emotional response will be desire. I bring this up so that we can properly distinguish desire from value. To desire something is to have an emotional feeling of longing towards it. Valuing something, on the other hand, just means that you've evaluated it as something good, that you would like to have happen to you. It's not emotional. It's cognitive. Of course, some people follow their feelings. So in that case, they would think that just because they desire it, it must be a value. But they're just evaluating it as a positive because of the emotions. There's two separate acts occurring. One is feeling the desire. The second is concluding that it's a value.
Good point, Joe! You don't have to have an emotional desire for something in order to value it. You simply have to recognize it as something worth gaining or keeping. For example, I might value studying for a test, while desiring to watch a movie instead. The fact that I have an emotional desire to watch the movie instead of studying for the test doesn't mean that I can't consider studying for the test to be more important.
Additionally, some people will use 'value' to mean 'want' or 'desire'. "I value it" can be taken to mean it's something I want. We'll try to avoid this usage because it's not correct. As I already mentioned, to value it is to recognize it as a value, which is cognitive. You may additionally feel desire for it, and that might even be the reason behind your acceptance of it as a value, but it's not the same. "I value it" means "I evaluate it to be positive".
Precisely. A value is that which one acts to gain or keep, and one cannot act to gain or keep something without evaluating it as a positive goal -- as something worth pursuing.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 1/28, 9:51pm)




Post 3

Sunday, February 3 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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does not one need causality to establish their ethics in order to validate their values. and what value does one have when they seperate their ethics from their morals?  



Post 4

Sunday, February 3 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. H. R. Brunton (or Harley, for short):

[D]oes not one need causality to establish their ethics in order to validate their values[?]

Yes. We "need" Causality to be in effect. We "need" Reality -- complete with Identity, etc -- to be "what it actually is" in order to perform this needed feat.

[A]nd what value does one have when they seperate their ethics from their morals?
That's a trick question (though you may not be aware of that). You're taking "ethics" and "morals" to be separate and distinct things -- but they're not. You'll have to write your thoughts more clearly than this if you're genuinely seeking intellectual progress on this matter.

What is this "ethics" that you can separate from your "morals"? Will you elaborate?

Ed




Post 5

Monday, February 4 - 2:10amSanction this postReply
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"That's a trick question (though you may not be aware of that). You're taking "ethics" and "morals" to be separate and distinct things -- but they're not."

Ed, perhaps I've been working off faulty definitions all my life, but the common usages of these words among people I've known seem to be slightly different. It's like the difference, in military terms, between high-level strategy (or theory), and low-level tactics (or practice).

Ethics, as I heard it used by others, refers more to the tactical level of how you react to events -- business ethics, for example, refers to concrete actions you should or should not do. Morals generally seems to be used by people I've known on a more ethereal, strategic level -- for example, whether altruism is moral or not, or whether NIOF leads to moral outcomes.

I guess the question is whether common usage should be allowed to define "ethics" and "morals", or whether, as in the definitions of "altruism" or "liberal", we should insist on disallowing what we consider sloppy or completely false definitions of those terms.



Post 6

Monday, February 4 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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Jim, in response to me telling Harley that you don't get to separate ethics from morals, you say:

... the common usages of these words among people I've known seem to be slightly different.
But that's not good enough (for any kind of argument against my charges to Harley). This is explained below.

It's like the difference ... between ... theory ... and ...practice ...
You cannot separate theory from practice. Theories are theories about what kind of practice ought be performed. Practices are practiced according to theories. Reality arbitrates the successful from the not. It's successful theories that, when practiced, produce benefit. It's unsuccessful theories that, when practiced, produce dismay. There's no disconnect.

We don't have a viable option to "practice" without theorizing. It's a part of being human to theorize about what kinds of practices to engage into. It's the function of our intellectual powers of the awareness of reality. A mindless brute can practice without theory, thinking humans cannot.

Ed 




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